28-10-2001 08:02									#1
	Diadochs - Any Ideas Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

My plan for my firt scenario in Civ is for a Diadoch struggles scenario between 280 - 106BC, with the map stretching from Spain to India. Can anyone give ideas on what should go in it (events, units, civs, leaders, UUs, CSAs, etc. etc.)?

Name (Leader) - CSA - UU

Diadochs:
1) Macedonian Empire (Philip V) - Commercial/Militaristic - Greek Garrison, Hetaroi, Phalanx
2) Ptolemaic [Egyptian] Empire (Ptolemy VI) - Commercial/Religious - Hetaroi, Libyan Mercenaries
3) Seleucid [Syrian] Empire (Antiochus III) - Militaristic/Expansionist - Cretan Archers, Hetaroi, War Elephant

Greeks:
4) Achaean League (Aratus of Sicyon) - Commercial/Industrious - Phalanx
5) Aetolian League (Cleomenes III) - Militaristic/Scientific - Phalanx
6) Pergamum (Philetaeros) - Commercial/Militaristic - Phalanx
7) Epirus (Pyrrhus) -Militaristic/Expansionist - Phalanx, War Elephant
8) Neutral Greeks (?) - Commercial/Scientific - Phalanx

Western Empires:
9) Rome (Aemelius Paulus) - Expansionist/Militaristic - Legion
10) Carthage (Hamilcar Barca) - Commercial/Religious - Transport, Quindrireme, War Elephant
11) Illyria (Pharos) - Militaristic/Commercial - Pirate

Anatolian Kingdoms:
12) Cappadocia (Ariarathes II) - Militaristic/Religious - Scythian Cavalry
13) Armenia (Tigranes I) - Religious/Industrious - Scythian Cavalry
14) Pontus (Mithridates II) - Expansionist/Industrious - Pirate, Scythian Cavalry

Eastern Empires:
15) Parthia (Arsaces II) - Militaristic/Religious - Horse Archers
16) Bactria (Menadrus the Great) -Expansionist/Commercial - Tafrorichus

Last edited by Mongoloid Cow on 31-10-2001 at 10:28

	28-10-2001 13:24									#2
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16 Epeiros-Pyrrhos-?

	28-10-2001 14:26									#3
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Thanx Wernazuma III.

	28-10-2001 19:52									#4
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Here i'll help you out with rome,

first off the leader of rome was changing every year so it would be hard to get a good leader for them, but if you extended it out the guy credited for starting up rome name was Romulus. The CSA could be militeristic and expansionistic; during this period rome was quite militaristic. Its starting gov would be republic and the rest you already got.

I'm not really sure about the other ones but since they are all really greeks they most likely would all have the hoplite (though i doubt thats what you want.)

However the Macedonians should be renamed the Antionid, they were the empire that ruled this area

	28-10-2001 23:04									#5
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10) Parthia (Arsaces/Mithridates) - Militaristic/Expansionist -Parthian horse archers
Never heard about "Parthian's arrow"? When the parthian cavalry fled from battle, they launched arrows to their chasers over they shoulders.

11) Bactria (Diodoto) - Civilized/Rational - ?

Last edited by jasev on 28-10-2001 at 23:17

	28-10-2001 23:28									#6
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As roman leader you could either take Scipio Africanus or Aemilius Paullus (Scipio's cousin and victor of the battle of Pydna)

	29-10-2001 05:40									#7
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Very, very interesting subject. I think it could make for a great scenario. So, some info from the top of my head:


- Seleukides

Andichos III is a good choice, but IMNSHO Selevkos I (the founder of the selevkian dynasty and great conqueror) would be also good. Expansionist/militaristic is and as UU you could try the Argyraspis (actually, nothing more than a advanced phalanx).


- Baktria

Menandros the great, is the obvious choice (185-135 BC) - he managed to stretch his empire to include the whole of todays Pakistan, Afghanistan and 40% of India. Expansionist/commercial would be the abilities, and a good unique unit would be the "tafrorichos", a remarkable siege engine.


- Parthia

Arsakes II is the obvious choice here, he took the Skythic nomads named Parnii and led them into Parthia (after that the Parnii renamed to Parthians) and to a series of victories against the Greeks (even though he suffered some serious defeats from Selevkos II). Unique unit? But... the famous Parthian cavalry archers, what else? Militaristic/commercial (or religious) the choices for CSAs



- Rome

As much as I like Scipio, Aemilius Paulus is more fit to your timeframe. The CSAs should be expansionist/industrius.


Some UUs that you could/should use:

- Hoplites (used by all the Greek states and most Hellenistic kingdoms - the latter used large bodies of Greek mercenaries)

- War Elephants (Pyrhos made them known in the west, but ALL Hellenistic kingdoms used them from their very beginning. Well, besides Egypt that is)

- Macedonian Phalanx (still, the mainstay of every hellenistic army)

- Hetairoi (the elite Macedonian cavalry, used by all hellenistic kingdoms)

- Cretan Archer (the best archers in the eastern mediteranea for many years, used as mercenaries by the Selevkids).

- Cavalry (or Skythic?) Archer (usually Skythes mercenaries, the steppan nomads fought for any decend pay - used by all the eastern kingdoms at times).


hope I helped you a bit.

	29-10-2001 10:56									#8
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Thanks

But my knowledge of Galatia, Armenia, Parthia and Bactria in the time frame is a bit skimpy, besides they were all powerful and the info you've given me. And does anyone have a map of the land between the Mediterranean and India? I've found enough for the Mediterranean theatre to get good detail on resources, cities and roads.

	29-10-2001 13:43									#9
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Well, that's a pretty impressive list already, Mongoloid Cow, I don't have much to add to it.

One thing though: can someone explain to me why Scipio Africanus is NOT a suitable leader for this scenario? The time period is 280-106 BCE, a time - from a Roman/Carthaginian point of view - dominated by the Punic Wars (264-241, 218-201, 149-146). Publius Cornelius Scipio Africanus the Elder lived from 236 BCE to 184 BCE and was most famous from his achievements in the Second Punic war while Publius Cornelius Scipio Africanus the Younger lived from 185 BCE to 129 BCE and was most famous for his achievements in the Third Punic War. Sure, it was also the time of the Macedonian wars and Paulus Aemilius but they were far less important for Roman history (and in fact the history of the entire Mediterranean) while they all-in-all cover a smaller time period (215-205, 200-197, 171-168, 149-148). For the time period Mongoloid Cow described, I personally don't think anyone comes even near Scipio Africanus (the Elder) when it comes to being a suitable for the Romans.

	29-10-2001 14:31									#10
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Locutus The significance of Scipio Africanus is with no doubt above all Roman leaders during the selected time frame. I was suggesting Aemilian Paulus because this scenario (as described by Cow) deals primarily with the diadocoi, and Aimilius Paulus had a far greater involvmend with the Greek elements in this period.

It's up to him, knowing that Scipio was one of the greatest leaders Rome had

Mongoloid Cow I won't be able to help you with Galatia and Armenia - AFAIK Galatia never existed as a separate state or whatever, so it would be quite hard to introduce them into your scenario as something besides barbaric tribes. Fact is though I don't have any alternatives for them.

Bactria
You shouldn't place it among the "Eastern empires" but among the "diadochoi". Menandrus was the son of Demetrius II, a descendant of Evthedimos, the first autonomus of Bactria. It was another hellenistic kingdom, of course. They called Bactria "Nea Ellada", New Greece. Evthedimos was the commander of the province when Andiochos III the great invaded - he remained in power thanks to a peace agreement he signed, authorizing Andiochos as the prime ruler for Bactria too. Afterwards, taking advantage of the Parnii (Parthian) invasion, he managed to make his kingcom independant - circa 200 BC. He remained in power till 190. His son Demetrius I went on with the military campaign to add more land in his empire. Followed by Demetrius II, Andimachos, Pandaleon and finally Menandrus the Great, who has risen to power in 155 BC. He conquered Draggian (in todays Pakistan) and Arachosia (Afghanistan) and then he conducted a massive military campaign, aiming at Palivothra, the capital of the Indian Kingdom (at that time the Indian hegemon was Pusyamitra. He conquered Palivothra but he had to fall back due to inability to effectively hold such an empire.

The hellenistic kingdom of Bactria made it well into the 1st century BC, before it was overrun by neighburing barbarians.


On Parthia I don't have much data, besides their interaction with the hellenistic kingdoms of the era. They were nomadic tribes of Skythic origin and in the late 3rd century BC they came south from their land (around Black Sea) and settled in Parthia, currently under Greek rule. They managed to conquer a large empire, which was "finalized" after a massive military victory against Andichos VIII (the Greek hegemon of Syria - Selevkids - was killed along with 20.000 of his men in Mesopotamia) in the spring of 129 BC.
Run a Google search and you'll come up with some facts you could use to back up your scenario.

Last edited by Rosacrux on 29-10-2001 at 14:40

	30-10-2001 13:25									#11
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The reason I didn't put Bactria in the Diodoch civs as in the scenario, the focus is heavily weighed upon Macedonia, Egypt, Greece and Syria, rather than Rome, Carthage, Bactria or Parthia, even though I intend to put a few events in for them. That also explains why Aemilius Paulus is the Roman leader instead of either of the Scipio Africanuses. And Carthage and Rome need to be equally weighed with the far east of the map, to keep the focus on the centre of the map ie. Greece, Anatolia and the Levant.

And thanks for the Galatia info. Should it be replaced by:
1) Syracuse
2) Massalia
3) Thrace (which was part of the Aetolian League)
4) Bithynia
5) Illyria
6) Dardania
7) Isreal (or what ever name it had) to emerge as a powerful state later in the game
8) India
9) Or whatever anyone recommends

And I really need a map on ancient Iran!!! I had no idea of the cities you were mentioning.

	30-10-2001 14:08									#12
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Map? Well, I got a couple of maps, but they are not really scan-able (placed into biiiig books... you are getting the picture?) and in the wrong language.

Replacing Galatia... that won't be easy.
From the list I'd pick the Illyrians as a distinct entity (Syracusae was under Roman influence in that era, as was Massilia, most of the others haven't got any significance at all, Israel was not autonomus in that era: in the first half it was under greek rule - the Selevikeds have faced two major hebrew revolts and they crashed them both with steel - and then under Roman rule etc. but there was semi-autonomus Judea. Certainly not significant for the era, though) but I guess you will have a hard time finding leaders, units etc. for them. For the greater part of this period the Illyrians were Romes allies (later subjects) and they fought for the Romans (as allies) in Greece during the Achean war and even earlier (3rd Macedonian war).

I got some bibliography for you, if you go in your local library they might have one of these books:

- N.Hammond: The Macedonian State

- Fr.Walbank: The Hellenistic world (loads of data about the period, this book can give you the whole historical frame for your scenario)

- W.Tarn: Military and naval advances during the hellenistic era (as the title suggests, you can find heaps of info about units here )