28-10-2001 18:10									#1
	Should a 'Seafaring' CSA be added in an expansion pack? Inflate your Upload Space

Another suggestion from the CSA design workshop :

'Seafaring': Free tech - alphabet; Effect 1 - water tiles yield more commerce; Effect 2 - civilization starts with a speedboat

The speedboat would be a civ-specific unit of seafaring civs, comparable to the expansionst civsī scout. Its stats would be 0/1/4 (faster than a trireme, but no attack value), and it would be only in danger at oceans.

If we tolerated CSA free techs that arenīt located at the outset of the tech tree, map making would be another possible free tech for 'seafaring'. OTOH, Iīd like to have the CSA-specific speedboat unit available before triremes.

Regarding the civilizations that are already included in Civ3, I think that the English could be termed a commercial and seafaring civ rather than commercial/expansionist as they are considered now by Firaxis. Civīs from the top 24 of Locutusī 'expansion pack' thread that Iīd consider as seafaring are the Dutch, Phoenicians/Carthagians, Polynesians, Portugiese and Vikings.

Many thanks to Jeje2, Mark L and splangy for bringing forward the idea of a 'seafaring' (or 'maritime') civ-specific ability.

Last edited by lockstep on 28-10-2001 at 18:21

	28-10-2001 18:37									#2
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Note: Iīm not a native English speaker, but all my dictionaries (on- and offline ) tell me that 'seafaring' (and not 'maritime') is the correct term.

	28-10-2001 19:26									#3
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I voted for seafaring but how about instead of the extra commerce all the ships get plus 1 to move and your civ could start with say a coracle (speedboat sounds to advanced)

	28-10-2001 19:34									#4
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quote: I think that the English could be termed a commercial and seafaring civ rather than commercial/expansionist as they are considered now by Firaxis

Definitely.

	28-10-2001 19:49									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Mars I voted for seafaring but how about instead of the extra commerce all the ships get plus 1 to move and your civ could start with say a coracle (speedboat sounds to advanced)

When I typed 'coracle', my online dictionary surrendered. I imagined a unit like the Polynesian canue mentioned in Jared Diamonds 'Guns, germs and steel'. I donīt have the English version of this book, but browsing through some online retailers suggested that Diamond used the term 'speedboat'. Native speakers, please help.

Speaking of movement rates, your suggestion would also make for an interesting 'seafaring' effect. OTOH, I thought Iīd rather create a CSA-specific unit with high movement (it has been revealed only lately that CSA-specific units are in the game) and leave the general movement bonus to the Lighthouse, which a 'seafaring' civ will surely want to build. I also wanted to create an incentive for seafaring civs to found their cities near the coast (to get that lovely commerce bonus).

BTW, it seems appropriate to me that a 'seafaring' civ always starts near a coast.

	28-10-2001 21:14									#6
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i agree with maritime...

	28-10-2001 21:29									#7
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quote: Diamond used the term 'speedboat'. Native speakers, please help

Speedboats are motor boats designed for high speed.

How about catamarans?

	01-11-2001 16:51									#8
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Now that Civ3 is released, we have more bits of info to speculate about the desirability of a 'Seafaring' CSA. I view this CSA as similar to 'Expansionist', and it seems that this CSA is more powerful than we thought so far because it allows for fast contact with other civs. A 'Seafaring' civ wouldnīt be able to get better stuff out of goody huts, and contact with oversea civs wouldnīt result in trade of resources until harbors could be built. OTOH, if trading of world maps and advances is possible without harbors (can someone confirm this?), a 'seafaring' civ could become sort of a 'power broker' and get a lead in science only by means of trade.

Edit: Map and tech trading without harbors has been confirmed.

Last edited by lockstep on 01-11-2001 at 20:38

	02-11-2001 08:12									#9
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quote: Originally posted by lockstep When I typed 'coracle', my online dictionary surrendered. I imagined a unit like the Polynesian canue mentioned in Jared Diamonds 'Guns, germs and steel'. I donīt have the English version of this book, but browsing through some online retailers suggested that Diamond used the term 'speedboat'. Native speakers, please help.

A coracle is a skin-covered (as in animal hides) boat of small size. It's a rather unusual word. I remember that it was used often in Robert Louis Stevenson's Treasure Island. (Weird fact) A canoe is not at all like a speedboat. A coracle is similar to a canoe, but made from different materials.

On another note... Seafaring is technically appropriate, but it's sort of an unusual word that doesn't really fit with other words like "commercial" and "religious". I think maritime or nautical might be better words. Seafaring connotes very rough type of sailing. Don't know if that's what you want to convey. It's probably appropriate, but I'd go with one of the other words.

A great idea BTW. I approve of all the civs you've chosen for this list. Can't really think of any other cultures like this. Good Job

	02-11-2001 09:28									#10
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A coracle link:

www.data-wales.co.uk/coracle1.htm

	02-11-2001 18:15									#11
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Maritime should be used, as it sounds better than 'seafaring'. I also think that coracle is the wrong word, the Polynesians and Native Americans both used 'Canoes' and that is the word that should be used.

The Canoe unit would be powerful enough on it's own without having an extra movement point, so the commerce bonus is a good idea.

	02-11-2001 23:50									#12
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Good polls, lockstep I agree an expansion pack could use 2 or 3 extra CSA's. As name for the boat is concerned, I would personally prefer Canoe but Coracle has certainly earned its name in the Civilization series (CtP2, GGS) and is very suitable as well.

	03-11-2001 03:09									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Locutus Good polls, lockstep I agree an expansion pack could use 2 or 3 extra CSA's.

Many thanks, Locutus.

So far, the 'Agricultural' CSA has a solid majority of supporters (41:11, poll already closed), and Seafaring (Maritime) is also doing well in this poll (26:6 so far). There were some ideas for even more CSAīs (namely, Diplomatic), but I couldnīt come up with suitable civs.

Anyhow, with 8 CSA in total there would be 28 possible combinations of two CSAīs - and isnīt 12 a good number of civs for an expansion pack? (I suggest to change either the Aztecs or the Japanese from Militaristic/Religious to something else, so that no combination is used twice.)

	03-11-2001 03:53									#14
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How about an enhanced settler unit which can travel across shallow water?

	03-11-2001 04:10									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman How about an enhanced settler unit which can travel across shallow water?

Good idea, but Iīd rather suggest that the canoe/coracle can transport one settler/worker unit. That would also allow for early colonization of archipelagos or remote continents. (Think Polynesians.)

	03-11-2001 05:08									#16
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quote: Originally posted by lockstep (I suggest to change either the Aztecs or the Japanese from Militaristic/Religious to something else, so that no combination is used twice.)

I think Japanese should be Militaristic and Agricultural - they did wonders with their islands as far as agriculture is concerned.

Also I think Chinese should be Agricultural and Industrious (rather than Militaristic perhaps). In particular if Mongols make it to the expansion pack, they should take the "Chinese" special unit (which is, for all the purposes, the Mongol rider) and Chinese should have some sort of crossbowmen.

Another Agricultural Civ I can envisage (if it makes it to the EX pack that is) is Poland. Throughout the whole middle ages and most of the industrial era it has served as the "granary of Europe". Even today big part of the Polish populace consists of farmers.

Edit: oops. Sorry I just realised this thread is about "Seafaring" not "Agricultural" CSA. I will post it there

	03-11-2001 16:38									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Martinus Edit: oops. Sorry I just realised this thread is about "Seafaring" not "Agricultural" CSA. I will post it there

And I will answer there.

	03-11-2001 18:59									#18
	Re: Should a 'Seafaring' CSA be added in an expansion pack? Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by lockstep Regarding the civilizations that are already included in Civ3, I think that the English could be termed a commercial and seafaring civ rather than commercial/expansionist as they are considered now by Firaxis.

I just realized that the English are the only civ with a naval special unit. They should definitely be 'seafaring' (maritime).

	30-11-2001 11:43									#19
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Id say no and just add the vikings with a longboat UU that is like a 1/1/4 and only sinks when in ocean (like 30% of the time) and can carry 1 unit. Have it available early as well (mapmaking probally).

If it was deemed to big of advantage to let them spread like that, then restrict it to no-settlers, but allow 2 combat units perhaps.