28-10-2001 20:15									#1
	Longevity is extremely powerful... Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Isnīt Longevity extremely powerful. It make your cites increase with 2 population points instead of 1 every time.

	28-10-2001 20:17									#2
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True, it's very powerful, but it also comes late in the game.

	28-10-2001 20:23									#3
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Where did you here about that.

But anyways if it is true (which i'm assuming it is) not really if its really late in the game, in fact its kind of useless at that point, IMO

PS Whoohoo, now i am a Prince! yessss

	28-10-2001 20:33									#4
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Better the Longevity wonder for a single civ than population booms for all civs. That was a game breaker.

	28-10-2001 21:28									#5
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I'm actually considering renaming Longevity to something else (Baby Boom, Procreative Directive, etc.) and making it a Small Wonder...that way each civ has the opportunity for a spurt of unbridled growth...however, I have to know if there is a limit or duration for the effects, if I can stop them after a time.

Ideally, I can turn this into a Small Wonder (so each civ can have a boost), it will be of limited duration, and it won't be tied to any particular era (so the pop boom can occur at any point in history). I just want to be able to recreate China or India's giant populations, or the U.S.' post-WW2 Baby Boom.

If I can't make the changes I want, I think I may just disable this Wonder.

	28-10-2001 23:58									#6
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I am thinking that longevity would be extremely powerful in war times. It could really help when you're trying to conscript an army. Also, if you manage to get it while there's still space on the map, it could make expansion really easy.

	29-10-2001 00:05									#7
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I think the effect of Longevity is much better. Automatic pop boom was way too strong. It was clearly unbalancing. Now, Longevity just effectively doubles pop growth which is great. yes, it comes fairly late, but I think it will still be a fairly useful WoW. Th extra pop growth could come in very handy at the end to give your civ a last boost.

let us not forget that if the the # votes of each civ depend on pop, then the Longevity could be very important for a UN victory! We already know that a civ needs at least 25% of world pop in order to be a candidate. The Longevity could be just the thing a civ needs to be a candiate in the UN election. So, it could end up pretty useful for a UN victory!

	29-10-2001 00:14									#8
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The effect is similar to a second Granary, so Longevity is very similar to Pyramids, but Pyramids come earlier, so they are much more powerful.

That said, a civ that has both Pyramids and Longevity might grow really fast. But do they overlap in time?

	29-10-2001 00:28									#9
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But isn't it true, that mayor wonders are meant
to be powerful? That's why we have minor wonders too.

	29-10-2001 00:42									#10
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When does the wonder come into being?

	29-10-2001 01:23									#11
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quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud When does the wonder come into being?

Longevity comes with the "Genetics" tech, right?

	29-10-2001 02:16									#12
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quote: Originally posted by lockstep Better the Longevity wonder for a single civ than population booms for all civs. That was a game breaker.

That's a strange way to balance the game. Take away a strategy that everyone can use and turn it into something only one person can build. I think that this one deserves to be a minor wonder on game balance alone. (Though it is hard to see how if such a thing were developed in RL that it couldn't be duplicated in other industrialized countries.....)

	29-10-2001 02:39									#13
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QUOTE]Originally posted by Gyromancer
That's a strange way to balance the game. Take away a strategy that everyone can use and turn it into something only one person can build.[/QUOTE]
I can only hope that this wonder is very expensive, so you have to decide wheter is it is useful to build, or to keep on building your spceship

	29-10-2001 02:49									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Gyromancer That's a strange way to balance the game. Take away a strategy that everyone can use and turn it into something only one person can build.

Besides availability, there are some other differences between Civ2īs pop boom and Civ3īs Longevity wonder:

- Pop booms (available via the 'We-love-the-leader-day') made a cityīs population grow every single turn, while the Longevity wonder 'only' doubles the growth rate.

- Pop booms were essentially available with Republic and some city improvements (i.e. in the early game), while the Longevity wonder is available with Genetics (i.e. in the late game).

IMO, pop booming wasnīt even a 'strategy' in Civ2 (that would imply the presence of alternatives), but a necessity. If you didnīt do it in the higher levels, you were doomed.

	29-10-2001 02:53									#15
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quote: Originally posted by ajbera a spurt of unbridled growth...

You're kill 'en me...

	29-10-2001 02:56									#16
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But only one civ gets the benefit of the wonder.

	29-10-2001 03:01									#17
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quote: Originally posted by cyril25376 I can only hope that this wonder is very expensive, so you have to decide wheter is it is useful to build, or to keep on building your spceship

I make it a point to collect as many Wonders as can fit into my capital. And I don't have to worry about producing a spaceship; only the bloodlust victory option will be turned on.

	29-10-2001 03:15									#18
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Longevity as a scientific acheivement isn't all that far fetched. Ever been to England? Check out the doors on a 500 year old building. Medieval people averaged something like a foot to a foot and a half shorter than your average modern human. Better medicines and better eats make for a healtier populace.

Also, even fifty years ago, people simply didn't live into their nineties on a regular basis. Now, it's an international crisis; suddnely a huge chunk of our population is turning 'senior citizen' and yet will live thirty years beyond that.

Also, don't forget that it wasn't that long ago that for every birth, you were almost guarenteed that either the mother or the child would die. Not nowadays.

	29-10-2001 03:36									#19
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I still donīt see why people complain about Longevity, but not the Pyramids. If the Pyramids donīt unbalance the game, neither will Longevity. Longevity might be good for Communism, though: More draftees for the Motherland!

	29-10-2001 03:46									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune I still donīt see why people complain about Longevity, but not the Pyramids. If the Pyramids donīt unbalance the game, neither will Longevity. Longevity might be good for Communism, though: More draftees for the Motherland!

Any civ can reproduce the Pyramid's effects by building granaries; the effects of Longevity are unparalleled.

	29-10-2001 03:53									#21
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If all it does is double the population gain through the natural growth rate it should not be that imbalancing. I am wondering, does the number or rows of food to grow to the the next population size still max out after a certain size?

	29-10-2001 03:57									#22
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quote: Originally posted by ajbera Any civ can reproduce the Pyramid's effects by building granaries; the effects of Longevity are unparalleled.

But it comes so late, that it's really only useful in giving a civ that last push for culture (assuming population helps culture, a dubious assumption at best). By the time you get longevity, the end-game has begun, your cities are already metropolis' so there is minimal benefit, beyond helping your game score.

If longevity came in the industrial age, yes, it'd be overpowering, but it comes so late, that it doesn't change the end-game or how it's played at all.

	29-10-2001 03:57									#23
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You can't really use ito superdraft for the following reasons.

1 : Conscripts are a bunch of crap. In a modern game when you'd have longevity they'd be workless except as cannon fodder.( something to train your enemies units with. )

2 : You can only draft a max of 3 per city.

3 : Your cities hate it and will cause widespread revolts.

Longevity is actually only useful if you've left a lot of miniature undeveloped cities out in deserts somewhere and have only just started to develop them. As far as I can see it was probably only put in for catch up purposes and to encourage growth in the modern age ( I mean did you EVER build a city in civ2 after you started the 2oth century? )

	29-10-2001 04:03									#24
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quote: Originally posted by lockstep IMO, pop booming wasnīt even a 'strategy' in Civ2 (that would imply the presence of alternatives), but a necessity. If you didnīt do it in the higher levels, you were doomed.

I never used pop-booms in Civ2 or SMAC, never even heard of the strategy till I got onto Apol and I still thought it was wildy unrealistic, so I wouldn't use it. I'd still regularly beat the AI on Deity and Transcend

	29-10-2001 04:05									#25
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quote: Originally posted by ajbera Any civ can reproduce the Pyramid's effects by building granaries; the effects of Longevity are unparalleled.

Sure; but that late in the game, it will hardly be decisive. In fact, I doubt I will bother to build it. Look at it like this: What use is Longevity, if in the meantime someone else is building the Spaceship (or enough ICBMs to nuke you back into the Stone age)? At the time you have researched genetics, you will probably have more pressing priorities than a long-term increase in population.

	29-10-2001 04:13									#26
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Ahh yes, if it gives you the ability to actually found modern cities and grow them to a decent size then that would be nice. Still expensive trying to catch them up in turms of city improvements though.

	29-10-2001 04:14									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Faboba You can't really use ito superdraft for the following reasons. I believe that may be the one worthwhile use of it. 1 : Conscripts are a bunch of crap. Not if you use them wisely. 2 : You can only draft a max of 3 per city. Per turn. 3 : Your cities hate it and will cause widespread revolts. One way to use the conscripts.

	29-10-2001 04:36									#28
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quote: Originally posted by SerapisIV I never used pop-booms in Civ2 or SMAC, never even heard of the strategy till I got onto Apol and I still thought it was wildy unrealistic, so I wouldn't use it. I'd still regularly beat the AI on Deity and Transcend

I should have said 'Without pop booming, I would be doomed at the higher levels'.

No kidding: While it is possible for skilled players to win on Deity and Transcend without pop booming, you canīt go wrong with it. I consider pop booming as powerful as ICS and even more unrealistic, thatīs why I called it a gamebreaker. (After a bug in the original SMAC version regarding the ability of some factions to pop boom was fixed in SMACX, some people termed the result a different game.)

I simply wonder why people complain about the power of the Longevity wonder instead celebrating the removal of pop booming.

	29-10-2001 04:49									#29
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quote: Originally posted by lockstep I simply wonder why people complain about the power of the Longevity wonder instead celebrating the removal of pop booming.

People are not being realistic when they call Longevity powerful. It's actually quite weak, not because of its benefits, but because of its location on the tech tree, too late to make much difference.