30-10-2001 20:54									#1
	Is no one in this forum objective? Support Apolyton

It seems to me that nearly everyone in this forum fits into either 2 groups.

The first group, that will patheticly defend sid meier, firaxis and the game at all costs, and ignore any of the faults that the game might have.

The second group, who desperately looks for any faults and downsides and doesn't mind giving into vast speculation, exageration, and rumour mongering in the process.

It's just a game, it doesn't require your loyalty, or your hatred. And it all seems pretty silly to me.

	30-10-2001 20:58									#2
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I'm objective when it suits me. Not that it matters, I'm going to get Civ3 if I want to or not. My willpower is nil.

Where in Ontario are ya Osweld?

	30-10-2001 21:05									#3
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I used to be objective but in the end I couldn't see the point of it.

	30-10-2001 21:11									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I have to agree with you that there seems to be two groups, Osweld.

But the "rabid fanboy" group is to be expected. Its a Civ3 website and forum. In any game-specific site, its expected.

The "negative at all costs" group I don't get. Except to attract attention to themselves and to justify their pre-determined judgement.

The negativity will come in waves;
1. Pre-release: "This game will suck because its not as good as game X or doesn't include Y feature."
2. 1 week from release: "It was good for 2 minutes but then it got boring. What a let-down." Might include serious/minor technical problems.
3. 3 months later: "Game X is a much better game."

At the 6 month mark, mostly hardcore/serious gamers are left. This is the important part since thats when mods/customizations start to get good.

I'm willing to criticise the game/not buy it. But the UI seems ok and there doesn't seem to be any serious technical problems so far.

	30-10-2001 21:13									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

By nature and by profession, I tend to be objective. I have said before that Civ3 (or any other games) is not that big of a deal to me. If I like it, fine, it goes into my rotation list; if not, that's fine too, I certainly got other games I can play in my limited spare time. That's why I'll be writing a detailed review at forum of game critics on Civ3, but it will take time. Right now, you are seeing alot emotions: from those so excited about finally getting something that they have been impatiently waiting for, and those are trying to counteract that with whatever justification they come up with. That's human nature. Personally, I am ignoring about 95% of the garbage here and try to focus on what really matters: defining strategies and understanding/promoting the editors and scenario building.

	30-10-2001 21:16									#6
	Re: Is no one in this forum objective? Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Osweld It seems to me that nearly everyone in this forum fits into either 2 groups. The first group, that will patheticly defend sid meier, firaxis and the game at all costs, and ignore any of the faults that the game might have. The second group, who desperately looks for any faults and downsides and doesn't mind giving into vast speculation, exageration, and rumour mongering in the process. It's just a game, it doesn't require your loyalty, or your hatred. And it all seems pretty silly to me.

What do you consider objective?

I don't expect the game to be perfect, and I will point out flaws with the hope that they will be fixed, not to bash Firaxis or the game. I also think that, given the history of computer games in general, the Civ3 AI will not be as good as it has been hyped. I was around when the Civ2 AI was hyped in a similar fashion, so I am remaining cautiously skeptical. However, I am seeing some positive comments about it, so I will be glad to be wrong.

I am certainly looking forward to playing the game today...

	30-10-2001 21:26									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I think you may be a bit wrong. Not totally, just a bit.

I think I belong to a third group, realists. When I see reviews giving Civ3 93% I believe them. But I have my doubts.

Sid Meier is responsible for the best games I have played (Civ - Pirates), but he has also made games I disliked (Gettysburg - Magic). Then there are games I am neutral towards (SMAC).

I am not the only one. There are others... I think.

	31-10-2001 06:11									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

whatever happens to Civ 3 doesn't mean the end of the world for me...

I think I'm an agnostic :0

Theists: "There's no perfect Civ but Civ, and Sid is its prophet"
Atheists: "The perfect Civ never existed, does not exist and will never exist. "
Agnostics: "I'll play what we have, thanks. pass me the CD. "

	31-10-2001 08:12									#9
	Civ and atheism Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

In terms of Civ I am an agnostic...in terms of life I'm an atheist (I also a utopian socialist and on occasion a communist...Marxist mind you, not that butchered abomination Lenin onward used)

In a more relevant vein~
Living with the flaws of a game are a natural part of things for me. SMAC had considerable flaws (muddy graphics, AI deficiances, unit design could have been better ect.) , but I still regard it as one of the best games I've ever played. Many other games I have loved have had flaws (Baldur's Gate 1 & 2; Birth of the Federation, Civilization 2 [the AI was not so great]; and a few otheres) and you know what? I spent countless hours playing them and loved it! All games are made by people, and all people have flaws (except the annoying and unrealistic "perfect" characters that tend to show up in television shows and movies...I hate those, just a stupid plot device that will alienate the audience). Humanity has learned to deal with and accept flaws in life. We should similarly accept them in a game. We should also be patient, the world as a whole seems to have become impatient, and cliche as it is to say this: impatience breeds rash actions; and rash actions cause no end of suffering. Granted Civ 3 related items shouldn't cause great suffering, but the lesson still rings true.

...so yeah, I'm going to play it and love it.

	31-10-2001 08:35									#10
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Sid RULEZ!!

There are a few quirky little things I have experienced with the game, but nothing even remotely critical to gameplay.

This game is very good- and this is coming from a subjective point of view.

	31-10-2001 09:20									#11
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I actually fall into the minority THIRD group Ozweld. That is, I like about 90-95% of what I have heard about the game, but there are in my opinion a few GLARING errors in this game.
My biggest gripe, as most of you know, is the lack of a well modelled supply system for troops in enemy territories!!
My second gripe is that, after all they told us to the contrary, The Manhattan Project is going to be a MAJOR wonder (not happy Firaxis!!)
Aside from that, I think it looks, graphically 200-300% better than Civ II or CtP and I am hearing good things about the AI (plus I like the notions of forced labour and conscription being in!)
So, despair not Osweld, the voice of moderation LIVES!!!

The_Aussie_Lurker.

	31-10-2001 09:45									#12
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by GoofyBoy The "negative at all costs" group I don't get. Except to attract attention to themselves and to justify their pre-determined judgement.

Oh, please. People complain because they see a fault in the game. It's the hight of arrogance for pompous individuals like yourself to condemn everyone who brings up their negative opinions on the game. Has it ever occured to you that some people don't like the things you like? That's it, right? If you don't like them pointing out what in their opinion is a flaw, they are obviously judgemental and self-obsessive. Right?

Why can't you be objective about people's opinions? Don't you dare presume to know other people's motives!

	31-10-2001 14:01									#13
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by GoofyBoy But the "rabid fanboy" group is to be expected. Its a Civ3 website and forum. In any game-specific site, its expected. The "negative at all costs" group I don't get. Except to attract attention to themselves and to justify their pre-determined judgement.

To be fair, it seems to me that almost none of "negative" people really come here to promote others game.

They start with great hopes and interest for the new game, ready to applaude to a good game (in their point of view, but that's understandable, I suppose).

Then, as with some "love relation" something goes wrong, and you know how the more hot lovers can suffer so much to become real haters. Divorce are often sad affair

Everyone still in love shouldn't be so offended: simply thanks yourself and your (game related) God you feel fine.

You should give a hand to anyone is suffering, or at least ignore him/her. Aren't you that kind of people looking in disgust to separated/divorced people, are you?

	31-10-2001 14:26									#14
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I'm an objective optimist, but I havn't got the game yet...

Peace!
-- Roland

	31-10-2001 17:41									#15
	Re: Is no one in this forum objective? Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Osweld It's just a game, it doesn't require your loyalty, or your hatred. And it all seems pretty silly to me.

Games, politics, and sex always attract those who like to mindflick you off ...