31-10-2001 03:02									#1
	Whats the deal with "The Manhattan Project"? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I JUST DON'T GET IT!!! Just two months ago, the Firaxis team were boasting about how each civilization would now have to work to get their Nuclear Weapon capability. Now, at the moment of truth, we discover that the Freeloader system is back in (ie. The Manhattan Project is again a Major Wonder-and all civs get access to Nukes!)
Some have suggested that this was for game balance, but I don't see how that argument can stand up! After all, if I've done the hard yards to build a wonder like "TMP", I don't see why every other civ should reap the benefits (except my allies!)
Not only is it bad from a gameplay perspective, it is also historically inaccurate. I mean, could you see Russia in the 1950's going up to their "Friends" the U.S.A and saying: "I see you've developed Nuclear Weapons, mind if we borrow the technology?" The only way you should have nuclear weapons is if you build TMP or if you're allied to someone who has!
What annoys me most was how the guys neglected to tell the faithful Apolytoners about their change of heart!
I'm usually willing to give the Firaxis guys the benefit of the doubt, but on this issue they've really SCREWED UP!! The only way I can see it being made right is if you can somehow turn it down to a minor wonder, but I'm not holding my breath!
Come-on guys, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it!" (and 2 months ago it wasn't broke!)

Yours,
The_Aussie_Lurker.

	31-10-2001 03:13									#2
	Suffering from ads?

I think you can reflag it as a "Small wonder" and-or reflag nukes-ICBMs to be civ specific units,

	31-10-2001 03:44									#3
	Re: Whats the deal with "The Manhattan Project"? Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by The_Aussie_Lurker I JUST DON'T GET IT!!! Just two months ago, the Firaxis team were boasting about how each civilization would now have to work to get their Nuclear Weapon capability. Now, at the moment of truth, we discover that the Freeloader system is back in (ie. The Manhattan Project is again a Major Wonder-and all civs get access to Nukes!) Some have suggested that this was for game balance, but I don't see how that argument can stand up! After all, if I've done the hard yards to build a wonder like "TMP", I don't see why every other civ should reap the benefits (except my allies!) Not only is it bad from a gameplay perspective, it is also historically inaccurate. I mean, could you see Russia in the 1950's going up to their "Friends" the U.S.A and saying: "I see you've developed Nuclear Weapons, mind if we borrow the technology?" The only way you should have nuclear weapons is if you build TMP or if you're allied to someone who has! What annoys me most was how the guys neglected to tell the faithful Apolytoners about their change of heart! I'm usually willing to give the Firaxis guys the benefit of the doubt, but on this issue they've really SCREWED UP!! The only way I can see it being made right is if you can somehow turn it down to a minor wonder, but I'm not holding my breath! Come-on guys, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it!" (and 2 months ago it wasn't broke!) Yours, The_Aussie_Lurker.

Erm the Russians had spies working on "TMP". Like in Civ 2 you were told about what other Civs were building!, how?, did they decide to leek that info to your civ, that has been a WAR with them for half the game?.

And the AMERICANS decided to give Nuclear Weapons to their Allies only after the Russkies built their own BOMB. Sort of 1-0, 1-1 3-1, 4-1, 5-1

	31-10-2001 03:58									#4
	Support Apolyton

Still, in game terms, I feel that the TMP would have been best left as a minor wonder.

	31-10-2001 04:13									#5
	Got spare money?

Bigspear,
I'm well aware that the Russians obtained nulcear weapons "technology" from spying on the United states (and will be able to do the same in the game with the "Steal Tech" espionage mission). The point, however, is that they still had to set up and test their own nuclear weapons to be sure that the theory stood up in practice (ie they built a "Manhattan Project")
The fact is that pretty much every power on the planet that has their own "stand alone" nuclear weapons program has had to do it's own set of nuclear tests (France at Bikini Atoll, Britain at Maralinga, Russia in Siberia and India in...well India!!) ie. they all had to "build" their own versions of TMP, and so it should be in the game!!!!!

Yours,
The_Aussie_Lurker.

	31-10-2001 05:00									#6
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Drakenred I think you can reflag it as a "Small wonder" and-or reflag nukes-ICBMs to be civ specific units,

From the Editor (Improvements and Wonders) screenshot, it looks like you can change TMP to a minor wonder, but it doesn't show any option like "allows the civ to build nuclear devices" only "allows all civs to build nuclear devices". Anyone with the game could try to change the function of TMP and tell us what happens? Please!!!!

	31-10-2001 05:05									#7
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Some have suggested that this was for game balance, but I don't see how that argument can stand up! After all, if I've done the hard yards to build a wonder like "TMP", I don't see why every other civ should reap the benefits (except my allies!)

What does that argument have to do with game balance?

The balance argument deals with if only one civ gets the ability for nukes, it is hard to stop them. No deterance from other civs. IRL, the deterrance was something moral. Civ games don't really model morality well .

	31-10-2001 05:13									#8
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

A small advantage to building it yourself rather than waiting for someone else to build it is that you can then control the timing.

But the rule is definitely there for game balance. Without it, a lot of games would descend into a mad race to develop TMP.

	31-10-2001 05:22									#9
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Well, if we are to take that game balance argument, then why not take it further and say that uranium shouldn't be neccessary for the creation of nulcear weapons. After all, if you are on a part of the map w/o uranium, then you are stuffed if all your opponents start a mad build-up of nulcear weapons.
Also, remember that they already have a good game balance feature for Nukes, you need space-flight and satellites to get both types of nukes, thus delaying their availability, and giving slower nations time to catch up in the testing of their own nuclear weapons!

Yours,
The_Aussie_Lurker