31-10-2001 19:15									#31
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quote: Originally posted by drake Ozy, because someone doesnt come to poly every day and do tons of research on civ3, finding out each and every last detail, doesnt make them any less a fan than the groupies who hang here every day. You're right. It's nothing. Can anyone who reads this, send me 50 bucks? I could use it.

drake:

You don't have to hang out here every day but you could easily go to Civ Fanatics and find out all of this information simply by reading their FAQ. Simply doing a search here on the forums would yield the same results. Heck, just checking the NEWS page would give most of the information he was complaining about.

I know when I am interested in a game I try to find websites about it and other information so I can make an INFORMED purchase. If the buyer doesn't do enough research on a product and things aren't to their liking then it's their own fault.

It's that simple.

	31-10-2001 19:19									#32
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

For all the optimistic people showing up in this thread:

I believe things are much worse than we thought: not only there isn't a scripting language yet, but we aren't even able to place cities or units with the tools provided with the game, so there will be no real scenarios until someone figures out how to do it and writes an application, or Firaxis develope the Scenarios Add-on.

And Markos, with all the features of the original plan?

Didn't they promise a certain number of scenarios (bigger for LE), and two different ways of Multiplayer games never heard of?

	31-10-2001 19:22									#33
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quote: He said except Civilization... got glasses? And if 50 dollars is a ton of money for you, go to school, get a degree, and get a better job.

No no glasses you?

I thought he wrote civilization board. And correct me if I'm wrong, but that isnt the same thing as civ2.

Yes, I better go back to school, so I can be as smart as you and earn lots of money to blow

A fool and his money are soon parted.....ever heard of that SA? Being a smart consumer does not equate to being poor.....However, blowing money, is equate to being stupid....perhaps its you who need to go back to school?

Start with economics 101

	31-10-2001 19:22									#34
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I really must say I don't like the hostile tone of some of the people on this thread. There's a lack of respect here that really turns me off from this place. There must be a better way of making one's point without sounding like a man on some high and mighty horse.

	31-10-2001 19:24									#35
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quote: I know when I am interested in a game I try to find websites about it and other information so I can make an INFORMED purchase. If the buyer doesn't do enough research on a product and things aren't to their liking then it's their own fault. It's that simple.

Hey I agree on this point....He made an assumption that essential features would be included......and he has found out how painful assumptions can be....

	31-10-2001 19:34									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Fiera And Markos, with all the features of the original plan? Didn't they promise a certain number of scenarios (bigger for LE), and two different ways of Multiplayer games never heard of?

exactly. i didnt say that civ3 has all the things they promised(MP) or all the things that someone would logically expect(scenarios)

my point was that since the development of the game had serious problems(departure of key members), and the publisher with the developer decided to go with the initial release date, it is logical(commonplace as LDiCesare agreed) to do so by cuting some features.

	31-10-2001 22:41									#37
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Seij, thanks for that response. I appreciate it.

Ozymandous, in fact I did find out that there was no events language or multi-player first. I posted last night and Mark G responded right away. Half an hour later I went out and bought the thing anyway. I've been playing (and buying) Civ games since they didn't have Roman numerals. $50 Canadian is not a problem for me, though I'm not so arrogant as to think it's not for many others.

I thought my first message was clear: 'If you're not sure, wait. I was disappointed, you might be too.' If checking the forums before buying is the right thing to do, then why is my "review" so unwelcome?

Mark G, if Firaxis had (more) personnel problems, fell behind and still wanted to make it's original release date, how does that justify charging full price for an incomplete product? Shouldn't they then provide the events and multi-player capability in a free downloadable patch? I don't think they will and I'm sure you agree.

I've spent most of my Civ time in the last 3 years as part of the scenario design community. I'm sure Firaxis, like Microprose before them, will acknowledge that the work of this community was largely responsible for the longevity of Civ2. Indeed, 3 of the 5 Civ2 releases were designed primarily to enhance scenario making capability (Scenarios, Fantastic Worlds, and Test of Time). Right now I think it's fair to say that the scenario community is outraged by Civ3. Go check out the Scenario League forum, particularly the 'FMK screenshots' thread.

I just think that if we're willing to be demanding consumers as well as enthusiastic fans, we will get a better product at a better price.

	31-10-2001 22:49									#38
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quote: I just think that if we're willing to be demanding consumers as well as enthusiastic fans, we will get a better product at a better price.

There you go throwing rocks at the golden calf again.

	31-10-2001 23:37									#39
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Gentlemen: Personal attacks are not called for; everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

I have been reading through the comments in these forums for several days now, reading both good and bad comments, and I think the answer lies somewhere in-between.

1) As I am sure most of you will agree there is something special about the Civ series - something that you can't quite define - its sweeping panorama of history; the research, the mystery. . .

This is probably why the Civ games are held in such high esteem - they do what few games are able to do: they draw you into the wonders of discovery and the scope of history.

No one hates Firaxis or Sid, et al - I am quite sure they have tried to do their best with this game. Except for the greedy release date by Infogrames, I can well imagine what a fantastic game Civ3 would have been with another 3-6 months development time under its belt.

2) I think the real problem is that the names Sid and Civilization are equated with something special; in an age of poor games and RTS click-fests, we were expecting something above the mundane. We were expecting that this game would not be released until Sid himself considered it to be perfect - after all, it is his flagship game.

Many gamers are satisfied with what came out the box; others will be sorely disappointed with what wasn't included - yet through it all - everyone WANTED this game to be great. If it failed to meet someone's expectations, or if the game has problems or bugs, or features have been left out of it, then those are related to release date pressures - which short-changes ALL civvers.

3) I have nothing but the utmost respect for the scenario creaters from Civ2 - without the editors to do decent scenarios for Civ3 - the civ comunity as a whole has been short-changed.

For those who have not played some of the absolutely brilliant scenarios in Civ2 - all I can say is - you don't know what you're missing. The lack of scenario creation diminishes Civ3 for everyone - for there is a great deal of talent out there that can improve this game immensely. These scenario designers do it for THE LOVE OF THE GAME.

4) Finally, all opinions should be welcome here at this forum - if we try to censor just one opinion then we are all dimminished from being able to think about the discussion or points raised.

Here is hoping that all the problems will be sorted out for everyone. Cheers

Last edited by Leonidas on 31-10-2001 at 23:44

	01-11-2001 01:48									#40
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quote: Originally posted by CygnusZ You know, I never played Call to power 1 or 2. What's wrong with them?

For all the people dogging CTP1 & 2 they were (are) both good games. The single biggest complaint was that the AI was to passive and didn't do a good job attacking, however, I almost always played on-line against other humans so this was never a problem for me.

For some people, if the game doesn't have Sid's name on it then they're going to run around talking trash about it. It's to bad because they missed out on a fun game.

	01-11-2001 02:25									#41
	Got spare money?

Thanks for the warning, techumseh. I haven't bought it yet and I don't think I'll waste my money on it. At least not until they fix some of the problems with it. The lack of a decent editor really disappoints me, along with all the other problems. They said they were going to support the mod community with a good editor and stuff. They lied to us.

Seij and those like him seems to have completely blind faith in Sid without any kind of critical thought at all. As was said earlier in the thread, if $50 is so cheap then surely you can afford to give some away to the rest of us. And I do happen to be going to school to get a degree. Not everyone is a spoiled rich kid with lots of money.

	01-11-2001 02:55									#42
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG my point was that since the development of the game had serious problems(departure of key members), and the publisher with the developer decided to go with the initial release date, it is logical(commonplace as LDiCesare agreed) to do so by cuting some features.

Now that I remember, they also said that Civ2 scenarios would be somehow compatible with Civ3... Looks like they made too many promises, and that's why they had to cut planned features.

Having that in mind, I agree that some people that have already paid 50$ for it may feel disappointed, and even cheated in some way.

The right thing for Firaxis to do would be offer free downloadable patches both for scenarios and multiplaying. Something tells me they won't...

	01-11-2001 03:43									#43
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How soon we forget Test of Time...

"Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."

Now, I realize that Infogrames/Firaxis had nothing to do with ToT, but it seems they liked the idea - from a truly business/economic/capitalist point of view.

I am enjoying the posts guys and gals, but I will save my $50 until next year when they likely release a boxed set that includes the original and the expansion(s) - like they did for Alpha Centauri and Alien Crossfire. That way I get the whole game, including multiplayer, editors, et cetera, for a fair price.

Just my humble opinion folks. May the ensuing slander begin!

	01-11-2001 04:13									#44
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG Adm.Naismith, lets wait a bit to see the full potential of people can do with the map/scenario/mod files first. someone already has added units even though the editor doesnt allow it(yet)

Mark, I read hints that Firaxian are quick to check in some thread with attention and (probably) unpayed personal help.

I hope that Firaxis will spend at least 4 to 6 months on heavy support (bug squashing, balancing, tuning, last minute simple commands or minor features. I really hope.

BUT they can't hope that, if things stay as today they seems to me, creative people will spend more time putting things as editor at work than producing mods and scenario.

As a quite old pro in SW development and user support I know how usually we lost a lot when a user must spend best part of her brain wrestling with a poor User Interface, or a bad developed sequence of forms, or not good enough features, while she is only supposed to use the SW as a tool to achieve her own real target.

My best respect to people able to use hex editor to explore and modify a file, but that's not I, as an IT Project manager, would tolerate as a inacceptable losing on time and real focus. As we are today, we really must count on people hign on "Scientific + Exploration (more goods from Exadecimal Edit of hidden files)"

	01-11-2001 04:21									#45
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Editor/Scenario Building - From what I've read on these forums & transcripts it seems Firaxis will make a patch for this. Releasing the game on time & putting out a patch in 2 months with the editor/scenario improvements is far better than delaying the game 2 months just so the better editor/scenarios were included.

Multiplayer - If Firaxis promised Civ3 would have multiplayer on it's 1st release, then there should be a patch to download & players shouldn't have to pay an extra $50. If Firaxis did not promise this then there is nothing wrong with them selling multiplayer later (like they did Civ2).

Risk & Reward - It should be obvious that if you run out & buy a game once it's released you are taking a risk. The risk is that the game will have flaws and/or not be what you wanted. The reward is obviously playing the game sooner. And even if someone does buy a game the 1st day it's released they would smarter to do their homework 1st.

quote: I am enjoying the posts guys and gals, but I will save my $50 until next year when they likely release a boxed set that includes the original and the expansion(s) - like they did for Alpha Centauri and Alien Crossfire. That way I get the whole game, including multiplayer, editors, et cetera, for a fair price.

Fair is in the eye of the beholder. To some being able to play Civ3 single-player games a year earlier (which has a greatly improved AI from what I've read so far) for $50 is a great deal, to others it is not.

	01-11-2001 04:59									#46
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG exactly. i didnt say that civ3 has all the things they promised(MP) or all the things that someone would logically expect(scenarios) my point was that since the development of the game had serious problems(departure of key members), and the publisher with the developer decided to go with the initial release date, it is logical(commonplace as LDiCesare agreed) to do so by cuting some features.

They were pretty shifty about announcing the reduced features. to promise something, then realize you can't deliver it (remember Mister Pleasant's post) and not tell people about the change...is dishonest. It's a lie. (to leave standing such statements for so long).

	01-11-2001 05:06									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Joe R. Golowka They said they were going to support the mod community with a good editor and stuff. They lied to us.

In fact I remember them saying the editor would be great, not just good.

Promises, Schmomises!

	01-11-2001 05:24									#48
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Where are they now? The Test of Time team, despite all its faults, were active on the boards every day for a couple of months after its release. A chat once in a while is NOT the same thing.

	01-11-2001 05:35									#49
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quote: Originally posted by GP They were pretty shifty about announcing the reduced features. to promise something, then realize you can't deliver it (remember Mister Pleasant's post) and not tell people about the change...is dishonest. It's a lie. (to leave standing such statements for so long).

But the DID tell people that MP wasnt in at least 2-3 weeks before the release. and before that, the discussion about the possibility had be going on for over month. so after all this, geting the game (on the first day!) and whining about the lack of MP seems a but unfair, dont you think?

	01-11-2001 06:39									#50
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Of course there is something in what you say, Marcos, and I fully realize that, to a certain degree, this is a half full/half empty discussion.

However, some people, in the face of the evidence, seem inclined to deny that the glass is , in fact, half empty.

I do not doubt the word of the people who say they like the gameplay, graphics are nice, and the AI is better than in CivII, possibly even very good.

I am glad to hear that.

On the other hand it is also established that:

-You cannot make scenarios with the Scenario Editor.
-There are no 12 scenarios included, nor 6, nor 3, nor one.
-No multiplayer.
-Lots of small nuisances that add up.
-My own pet topic: Espionage options reduced to the minimum.

All of the above -except the nuisances - has either been promised, or was implied as a given.

So donīt you think we have a reason to see the glass as only half-full, to phrase it favourably?

	01-11-2001 06:45									#51
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Pal, as far as I am concerned you can fill the glass up and dump it on your head or shove it up your .......

	01-11-2001 06:48									#52
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Markos: You are really stretching this, and it wears thin:

quote: But the DID tell people that MP wasnt in at least 2-3 weeks before the release.

Care to count the number of pre-orders WELL BEFORE THAT?

"But they can cancel pre-orders."

Blah blah blah.

Shoddy job. Period.

	01-11-2001 07:06									#53
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quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick Pal, as far as I am concerned you can fill the glass up and dump it on your head or shove it up your .......

Help, the (slightly retarded) Huns are attacking my city! *Must* *Get* *Swordsmen*!!!

	01-11-2001 07:21									#54
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG But the DID tell people that MP wasnt in at least 2-3 weeks before the release. and before that, the discussion about the possibility had be going on for over month. so after all this, geting the game (on the first day!) and whining about the lack of MP seems a but unfair, dont you think?

Granted that the MP capability was fairly widely publicized as being absent (and had been, er, "commented" on by a few) but the deficiencies in scenario/events/editting/map utilities have come as a bit of a shock for most I think...

	01-11-2001 07:28									#55
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Indeed. But why aren't Firaxis staff here to explain their decisions and defend their product? As I recall, this was the case with both CTP and ToT. It's not really fair to make Markos do it.

	01-11-2001 07:40									#56
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techumseh, they were here, just elsewhere
http://apolyton.net/misc/chat/civ3/civ3party-1.shtml

	01-11-2001 08:37									#57
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Like I said, it's not really the same.

	01-11-2001 12:41									#58
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I've attached this screenshot to illustrate just how much care and attention Firaxis has put into parts of Civ3. It's a half size shot of the Western European portion of one of the world maps included with the game. I added the lettering myself so you would know what's what.

Attachment: europe.gif
This has been downloaded 63 time(s).

	01-11-2001 12:53									#59
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My eyes, my eyes!

WHAT DO YOU EXPECT IF YOU GET AN AMERICAN TO DO THE WORLD MAP...only joking because much of America is a mess too!

	01-11-2001 14:27									#60
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Where's Ireland?