31-10-2001 11:57									#1
	If you haven't bought Civ3 yet... Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

...you might want to consider hanging on to your money. It looks a lot like Call to Power to me, but with very familiar techs, units and improvements from Civ2. There is NO multiplayer and NO scenarios. Key tools to make scenarios are missing, particularly any events language. So despite all the editors, don't expect any real scenarios anytime soon.

If you're a real fanatic and have lots of money, by all means go right out and get it. But if you're a bit short on cash, or there's another game you'd just as soon have, you might be better off to wait awhile. Let all the hype and eye candy wear off a bit and see if people are still excited about Civ3 a couple of months from now. I wish I had.

	31-10-2001 12:40									#2
	Remove this text

Umm, so they improved the graphics. That was the idea. The important thing is it doesn't play like CTP at all. It plays like Civ2.

No multiplayer and no scenarios point towards a rushed release from Infrogrames. You should be used to the fact that alot of big titles are pushed out early to increase sales. It would have probably been another 2-3 months in development if they decided to ship with multiplayer. Holiday sales play a big part in releasing early. I'm sure an expansion pack or possibly a patch will include multiplayer down the road. Wouldn't bet on the latter.

You know it really gets to me to see all these so called Civ fans whining about how horrible CTP is and how they'd wish Sid and company would produce an official sequel, but then totally dog the game once it's released because it's missing multiplayer. It's quite typical I know. It just goes to show you that you'll never be able to please everyone.

Be thankful you are able to get anything at all.

	31-10-2001 13:04									#3
	Support Apolyton

You know, I never played Call to power 1 or 2.

What's wrong with them?

	31-10-2001 13:23									#4
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Whats right with them

They were both good games ( the first less than the second ), buy we expecting something better from a game which carried the name 'Civilization'.

	31-10-2001 13:37									#5
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I've played civ and civ2 for 10 years, never played any scenario more than 10 turns.
I've played muuuuch single player games, and of course I did enjoy the mp games very much, but that doesn't mean I didn't like the sp.

why should I not buy civ3 if it doesn't contain scenarios and mp ?
civ never had any scenarios ! Civ2 originally didn't contain any mp.

why does everybody suddenly pop up telling us to not buy the game for strange reasons ? If you're sick of your game you can send it ot me. I'll pay you $30 if it arives within 2 weeks

CyberShy

	31-10-2001 13:42									#6
	Re: If you haven't bought Civ3 yet... Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by techumseh ...you might want to consider hanging on to your money. It looks a lot like Call to Power to me, but with very familiar techs, units and improvements from Civ2. There is NO multiplayer and NO scenarios. Key tools to make scenarios are missing, particularly any events language. So despite all the editors, don't expect any real scenarios anytime soon. If you're a real fanatic and have lots of money, by all means go right out and get it. But if you're a bit short on cash, or there's another game you'd just as soon have, you might be better off to wait awhile. Let all the hype and eye candy wear off a bit and see if people are still excited about Civ3 a couple of months from now. I wish I had.

i am a real fanatic. since when is USD 50 a lot of money, even outside america?

	31-10-2001 13:47									#7
	Increase the size of your Attachments

If you haven't bought Civ3 yet...then use your free time to mail to Firaxis and ask for the things (events/mp/etc) that are not included now!!!

	31-10-2001 13:55									#8
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Siej Be thankful you are able to get anything at all.

"Brilliant, absolutely f*****g brilliant! I just payed $50 for this game. I'm entitled to my opinion about the game, entitled to share it with people and entitled to not be satisfied. Do you think only favourable comments should be posted here?

It always amazes me how some people always pipe up with comments like this. Doesn't it occur to you that these game companies are not producing products as a personal favour? They do it to make money. And they may produce a very good product in the process. Or not. But if they give you the full package in one CD, they will certainly make less money.

Use your explorer to check out the installed Civ3 files. Open the text file called "Jackal." In it you will find commands related to multi-player games. Perhaps they've already designed the game for multi-player, but have not included multi-player functionality in this release so they can sell you another CD for 50 bucks in 6 months or a year. I'm sure you'll be suitably thankful.

Am I paranoid? Perhaps, but that's exactly what happened with Civ2. The suggestion that multi-player functionality or scenario events language has been left out because the game was "rushed' (they've been working on it for over a year) is very naive. All the hype about the fancy scenario editors means little, since you can't make a decent scenario without events. So you'll have to buy the next upgrade before those editors will be much use.

Civ3...................49.99
Civ3 Scenarios.....49.99
Civ3 Multi-player..49.99
Civ3 Gold Edition..49.99

Get the picture?

Let us give thanks!

	31-10-2001 14:19									#9
	Re: If you haven't bought Civ3 yet... Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by techumseh There is NO multiplayer and NO scenarios. Key tools to make scenarios are missing, particularly any events language. So despite all the editors, don't expect any real scenarios anytime soon.

That's sound strange to me: no script language, no triggered events... heavy to very hard work for MODders/scenario builders.

How can Firaxis officially claim their large support and hopes for fan developing large number of improvement, with MODs and Scenaries available everywhere.
Come on, it seems to really be PR bull#§%$ to sell to potential customers a great game support that can't really develop from the arid background they offer!

Why anything but the really basic game seems to add bad news to the pack? I have that strange vision of a flashing neon RUSHED alert.
Nah, after so many dreams of Civ III, I'm probably shifted to an almost nightmare moment.
Back to sleep now; when I'll be awake there will be a perfectly patched DVD version, tuned to perfection with the help of you kind early buyers. Thank you in advance

	31-10-2001 14:29									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I think I made the mistake of getting too hyped up about civ3 too. After the initial spate of the basic game wore off in civ2 (took about 6 months though ) scenarios really made it still worthwhile all through the next 5-odd years (and now will continue to do so). Lack of scenarios in civ3 really bites.

"Luckily" for me it won't be here for several weeks and I'll be able to decide whether to buy it or not after we know more about what is proposed further down the line.

	31-10-2001 14:37									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

i do not remember playing ANY game for more than 6 months. except civilization on board

	31-10-2001 14:48									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Techumseh,

*Shrug* I'm used to publishers using such strategy with big name franchises they know will sell. It's not 100% up to Firaxis on what is included. It's simple market strategy and logic not to include multiplayer in Civ3 and then sell the 'much awaited' multiplayer version for $30. That's smart business and that's life.

Do you have a right to post your opinion on this forum? Damn right. Does it get you anywhere? Nope. This is a Civ fan forum and a place for us to all get together and be giddy over the latest and greatest iteration. It's all been said before about the missing multiplayer and I guess my words weren't rightly chosen when asking you to be thankful for what you have.

Hopefully you enjoy the game enough to wait for a patch or expansion. If you are unwilling to support their product further thats your business. Just letting you know its a common trend with games and don't expect it to ever change. Money is king.

	31-10-2001 14:50									#13
	Inflate your Upload Space

The missing events/scripting structure still has me worried. A bad move from the developers... and a big step back from Civ2, even if one had to edit text files back then.

	31-10-2001 14:54									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Siej Techumseh, Do you have a right to post your opinion on this forum? Damn right. Does it get you anywhere? Nope. This is a Civ fan forum and a place for us to all get together and be giddy over the latest and greatest iteration.

Whaaat? Illness! This is NOT a place to gather and get giddy over Civ! This is *as much* a place for critical and constructive opinions!

In fact, adoration will lead to higher prices (oh they want it badly, let's raise that MRP), while critisism will lead to improvement (maybe more then 7 civs *is* cool) and lower prices (they are all bashing for lack of MP, let's offer it as a free DL before Civ3 dies in 4 months).

	31-10-2001 15:10									#15
	Tired of ads?

Grim Legacy,

Nope. The people that actually complain here on this forum and other places are such a small majority of those that purchase the game. Lower prices? Don't hold your breath.

	31-10-2001 15:22									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by techumseh The suggestion that multi-player functionality or scenario events language has been left out because the game was "rushed' (they've been working on it for over a year) is very naive.

perhpaps you forget that several key members of the team(including the designer, the producer and the head programmer :hmmm left, forcing development to almost restart from the begining(example: the man who mainly wrote the AI, Soren Johnson, was only hired on May 2000)

over that chat last night, it was made crystal clear by the firaxians that work on the editing tools are nothing but over. so i wouldnt start firing the flame thrower just yet

and yes, of course they have done work on multiplayer already. nobody said they havent.


Adm.Naismith, lets wait a bit to see the full potential of people can do with the map/scenario/mod files first. someone already has added units even though the editor doesnt allow it(yet)

	31-10-2001 15:39									#17
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by MarkG over that chat last night, it was made crystal clear by the firaxians that work on the editing tools are nothing but over.

God bless them!

	31-10-2001 16:00									#18
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by BeBro God bless them!

That must have been before I showed up

But Mike said many positive things about the game. It's good when the developers sound less like propaganda experts, more like obsessed fans

Makes me feel like the anti-Yin

	31-10-2001 18:12									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by techumseh "Brilliant, absolutely f*****g brilliant! I just payed $50 for this game. I'm entitled to my opinion about the game, entitled to share it with people and entitled to not be satisfied. Do you think only favourable comments should be posted here? It always amazes me how some people always pipe up with comments like this. Doesn't it occur to you that these game companies are not producing products as a personal favour? They do it to make money. And they may produce a very good product in the process. Or not. But if they give you the full package in one CD, they will certainly make less money. Use your explorer to check out the installed Civ3 files. Open the text file called "Jackal." In it you will find commands related to multi-player games. Perhaps they've already designed the game for multi-player, but have not included multi-player functionality in this release so they can sell you another CD for 50 bucks in 6 months or a year. I'm sure you'll be suitably thankful. Am I paranoid? Perhaps, but that's exactly what happened with Civ2. The suggestion that multi-player functionality or scenario events language has been left out because the game was "rushed' (they've been working on it for over a year) is very naive. All the hype about the fancy scenario editors means little, since you can't make a decent scenario without events. So you'll have to buy the next upgrade before those editors will be much use. Civ3...................49.99 Civ3 Scenarios.....49.99 Civ3 Multi-player..49.99 Civ3 Gold Edition..49.99 Get the picture? Let us give thanks!

Umm, ok, a few facts for you...

1. The rumor was that there was a scripting language in Civ3. That rumor was officially "squashed" by Dan M over a month ago here.

Where were you?

2. It has been OFFICIALLY stated the game wouldn't have MP for over 2 weeks at the Civ3 website and also here.

Where were you?

3. I believe it was also mentioned that there were no scenarios included with the game in several thread at least two weeks ago here. While not "official" until people actually got the game if you were here, and paying attention you'd know that as well.

Where were you?

Essentially you're *****ing and complaining about facts that have been common knowledge in the Apoly Civ3 forums for at least TWO WEEKS before the game came out, if not longer. If you were a Settler then you could feign ignorance but since you're a "prince" level of poster you have no excuses for not knowing this.

Maybe if you paid more attention before you bought the game you'd still have your $50 and wouldn't re-post old crap that most of the folks around here know already. Well, at least the things people know that have taken the time to research the game and pay attention to anyway.

	31-10-2001 18:19									#20
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Faboba That must have been before I showed up But Mike said many positive things about the game. It's good when the developers sound less like propaganda experts, more like obsessed fans Makes me feel like the anti-Yin

Actually, they are probably as upset at the lack of a full editor as anyone. I know when I used to write code I was slightly embarrassed when I used to finish a project that met what the customers wanted but wasn't as good as *I* wanted it to be.

I doubt the folks at FIraxis are any different (hopefully). Especially with Jeff Morris' comment about how robust the editor is expected to be and how they know the scenario/mod crowd will give Civ3 long "legs" they will more than likely fix the editor up nicely.

Until that point you have only the SP game with two fixed maps and of course the random map ability (what people used to do in Civ1 anyway!). If you don't like those choices then wait and buy the game, but for god's sake quit *****ing about the lack of this or that, sheesh.

	31-10-2001 18:29									#21
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: erhpaps you forget that several key members of the team(including the designer, the producer and the head programmer :hmmm left, forcing development to almost restart from the begining(example: the man who mainly wrote the AI, Soren Johnson, was only hired on May 2000)

So what? If you think it is an excuse, try to find how many software projects don't suffer from that same exact problem. As a programmer, such a situation seems totally commonplace to me.

	31-10-2001 18:35									#22
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Ozymandous Until that point you have only the SP game with two fixed maps and of course the random map ability (what people used to do in Civ1 anyway!).

actually, you also have a decent map editor(although without a minimap), which means soon we'll start seeing more maps, and you also have a decent mod(rules) editor(i'm actually amazed no polish-american havent created a mod with the polish civ yet! where is the polish community?!? )

	31-10-2001 18:37									#23
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by LDiCesare So what? If you think it is an excuse, try to find how many software projects don't suffer from that same exact problem. As a programmer, such a situation seems totally commonplace to me.

sure but how many of these projects are delivered on the original planned date and and with all the features of the original plan?

	31-10-2001 18:51									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: actually, you also have a decent map editor(although without a minimap), which means soon we'll start seeing more maps, and you also have a decent mod(rules) editor(i'm actually amazed no polish-american havent created a mod with the polish civ yet! where is the polish community?!

Pherhaps the game hasn't been released in poland yet

	31-10-2001 18:51									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Siej Grim Legacy, Nope. The people that actually complain here on this forum and other places are such a small majority of those that purchase the game. Lower prices? Don't hold your breath.

LOL. So you deem yourself the judge of the essence of the forum. Interesting.
Maybe you can show me the benefit of monotonous and ill-founded praise then?

...

No I didn't think so.

	31-10-2001 18:57									#26
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: sure but how many of these projects are delivered on the original planned date and and with all the features of the original plan?

You're right, this is far from commonplace.

	31-10-2001 18:57									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by CyberShy Pherhaps the game hasn't been released in poland yet

that's why i said "polish-american"

	31-10-2001 19:00									#28
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Brilliant, absolutely f*****g brilliant! I just payed $50 for this game. I'm entitled to my opinion about the game, entitled to share it with people and entitled to not be satisfied. Do you think only favourable comments should be posted here?

Well what did you expect Tech? You cast a stone at the golden calf.

You're talking to people (like siej) who would buy a peice of crap that sid meir took if he had the chance.

Look, I think your opinions are valuable and anything that is great, gets great because of constructive criticism. All of your comments were educated and fair. You weren't slandering the game, You didn't come in and say "civ3 blows" and leave without saying why.

And I thank you for your words.

Ozy, because someone doesnt come to poly every day and do tons of research on civ3, finding out each and every last detail, doesnt make them any less a fan than the groupies who hang here every day.

Larusso

quote: i do not remember playing ANY game for more than 6 months. except civilization on board

quote: i am a real fanatic.

Someone that didnt play civ2 more than 6 months ain't much of a fanatic if you ask me

quote: since when is USD 50 a lot of money, even outside america?

You're right. It's nothing. Can anyone who reads this, send me 50 bucks? I could use it.

	31-10-2001 19:10									#29
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Markos is one step ahead of everyone... BURN!!

	31-10-2001 19:12									#30
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by drake Someone that didnt play civ2 more than 6 months ain't much of a fanatic if you ask me

He said except Civilization... got glasses?

And if 50 dollars is a ton of money for you, go to school, get a degree, and get a better job.