31-10-2001 17:14									#1
	Complete list of leaders, gleaned from editor Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Rome:
Trajan
Hadrian
Maximus
Germanicus
Claudius
Anthony
Octavian
Titus

Persia:
Darius
Cyrus
Achaemenes

America:
Washington
Lee
Sherman
Jackson
Grant
MacArthur
Patton

Iroquios:
Shenandoah
Cornplanter
Tecumseh
Red Cloud
Sitting Bull

Germany:
Barbarossa
Richtoffen
Hengest
Horsa

English:
Edward
Boudicea
Nelson
Wallace
Cornwallis
Clinton
Wellington

Egypt:
Ramses
Cheops
Khufu
Mentuhotep
Seti
Na'rmer

Greece:
Pyrrhus
Hector
Ajax
Ulysess

Russia:
Ivan the Terrible
Peter the Great
Stalin
Lenin
Trotsky
Zukhov

China:
Kublai Khan
Sun Tzu
Qianlong
Ghengis Kahn
Jin Qiu
General Tso

India:
Chandragupta
Shivaji
Porus
Bindusara
Asoka
Akbar
Singh
Tilak

Aztecs:
Ahuitzotl
Itzcóatl
Acamapichtli
Axayacatl
Tizoc
Huitzilhuitl
Chimalpopoca
Maxtla
Nezahualcóyotl
Nezahualpilli

Zulu:
Mpande
Zwelithini
Dingane
Cetshwayo

Japanese:
Tojo
Hirohito
Fujiwara

Mongols: just kidding

Babylon:
Agum
Sargon
Sumuabum
Ashurbanipal
Naboplasser
Nebuchadnezzar

France:
Napoleon
Richelieu
De Gaulle
Charlemagne

	31-10-2001 17:19									#2
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You forgot the generic leaders.


GENERIC
Brian Handly
Sid Meier
Jeff Briggs
Soren Johnson
Steve Chao
Jeff Morris
Foertchemon
Kevin Margo
Beer
Jake Solomon
Alex Kim
Jerome A
Dave Evans
Nick RB

	31-10-2001 18:17									#3
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quote: China: Kublai Khan Ghengis Kahn

Does this mean that Firaxis consider they have included the Mongols within the Chinese civ? In other words: no Mongols in an XP? Or no XP plans at all?

	01-11-2001 00:40									#4
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I personally find the mix of real historical and totally fictional characters amusing. Plus the mix of ineffectual figureheads, historical unknowns, mass murderers and alcoholic drinks.

	01-11-2001 02:56									#5
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Q: Why are most of the Russians leaders Soviet Generals or Statesmen?

	01-11-2001 07:48									#6
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They'll put in Stalin but they won't put in Rommell????

How politically correct of them. . .

	01-11-2001 08:26									#7
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No Guderian? No Rommel? No Kesselring?

	01-11-2001 08:43									#8
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Tojo, that's um.......yeah

well i guess he did get them out of their mess

everyone else seems cool. where did they get so many damn aztecs?

	01-11-2001 10:39									#9
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quote: Originally posted by El Awrence No Guderian? No Rommel? No Kesselring?

Edit them- its super easy in the editor.

	02-11-2001 03:47									#10
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quote: Babylon: Agum Sargon Sumuabum Ashurbanipal Naboplasser Nebuchadnezzar

have heard of one of these people, guess which.

quote: Zulu: Mpande Zwelithini Dingane Cetshwayo

cant even pronounce these names, much less know who they were...

quote: Aztecs: Acamapichtli Axayacatl Tizoc Huitzilhuitl Chimalpopoca Maxtla Nezahualcóyotl Nezahualpilli

some of these look familiar, but why so many?

quote: France: Napoleon Richelieu De Gaulle Charlemagne

excellent choices....

	02-11-2001 07:10									#11
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Well, this is a bit of let down.

The Germans should have Rommel. Not only was he a great General, he was actually a decent man. Not exactly one you could group with the rest of the anti-semite Nazi maniacs.

Boudicea, BOUDICEA, the name is spelled Boudicca and she was Celt, I really don't think she belongs with the English at all.

	02-11-2001 23:38									#12
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quote: They'll put in Stalin but they won't put in Rommell????

Exaktly!!! And i bet the other civs leaders that you havent heard of before isnt better moraly anyway.

	03-11-2001 06:41									#13
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The same thought hit me while reading the list, no Rommel? I suppose you could put your own in though. I figures they might have been afraid of controversy, but then I saw the Russians . . . of Stalin, Lenin and Trotsky, Trotsky is the only real military leader.
But anyway, it's not that important. Anyone know if the list can be safely edited?
And by the way, civ 3 has auto save right? I'm only here because it just crashed a few minutes ago with some dll error, I hadn't saved in a looong time, my own fault I suppose.

	03-11-2001 13:25									#14
	Re: Complete list of leaders, gleaned from editor Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Maximus

argh, bow down to almighty Hollywood

Hengest
Horsa

WTF, do YOU know them? Why no Rommel, why no Blüchert?

Hector
Ajax
Ulysess

So many historical leaders, why pick Homer's mythical heroes?


Oh I forgot, we have the editor

	03-11-2001 15:19									#15
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And along the lines pf Gengis becomming Chinese - Boudicea and Wallace as English????? What the ****?

	03-11-2001 15:22									#16
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quote: Originally posted by El Awrence No Guderian? No Rommel? No Kesselring?

Or even Hitler. I mean when it comes to rushing production or raising an army after all........

Needless to say the Great Leaders need to have a lot of work done on them. I look forward to someone with sense and a basic non-biased knowledge of history to change it. ( not me... I'm much too laz.... busy. )

	03-11-2001 15:45									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Faboba Needless to say the Great Leaders need to have a lot of work done on them. I look forward to someone with sense and a basic non-biased knowledge of history to change it. ( not me... I'm much too laz.... busy. )

Can't wait til I get the game

	03-11-2001 16:54									#18
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3 Japanesse but 4 zulu leaders??

	04-11-2001 16:45									#19
	Re: Complete list of leaders, gleaned from editor Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Anunikoba Germany: Barbarossa Richtoffen Hengest Horsa

What a complete and utter nonsense!!!

Barbarossa is alright, as I have stated in another thread...

Richthofen? BS!! he was an ace, but not a leader as such! leaders should be generals, not mere Hauptmann-rank people

Hengest and Horsa are legendary names... they could as well have added Beowulf

Richthofen should be replaced by Moltke or Ludendorff, maybe Hindenburg... a WWII person should be in, as well as, say, Freerick the Great... everyone change his files like this !

El Awrence - are you sure Kesselring is the name of a German general? sounds more like a strategy than like a name... a Kesselring... well, it is when one army surrounds the other army... not a name

	04-11-2001 16:46									#20
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but maybe it is coincidentally the name of aan army general, I have no idea...

	04-11-2001 18:12									#21
	Re: Complete list of leaders, gleaned from editor Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Anunikoba Greece: Pyrrhus Hector Ajax Ulysess

Why 3 mythical leaders? Why not Pericles, Demosthenes. Ptolemy (Alexanders general), Philip, Lysander and Leonidas. And why Ajax, he was just one of the people in the Trojan war, well actually there were two of them, but Agamemnon or Achilles were more significant. Finally why Ulysees, the roman name instead of Odysseus the Greek one.

Edit: Who's Zhukov?

	04-11-2001 19:13									#22
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quote: Edit: Who's Zhukov?

One of the best Russian generals in WW2. He led final assault on Berlin. He's favorite tactics was "wpieriod/nazad" (forward/fallback). Thanks to his great leadership many Russian soldiers lost their lives in stupid attacks. But Russia won thanks to the large reserves of manpower.

	04-11-2001 21:29									#23
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Roman:
Maximus???? The Romans have enough leaders.. Until to add Hollywood heroes...

Persia:
Ok

America:
Why not Pershing (WW1)? Too many Civil War generals, I think. But still good.

Iroquois:
I know some of them. But if we have Sitting Bull why not Cochise or Geronimo?

Germany:
Richtoffen:??? If I remember quite well he was a luftwaffe officer during the WWII and the well known ace... But why a leader???
Schlieffen or Ludendorff will be so better...
WWII: Von Manstein or Rommel...

English:
Hum Wallace and Boudicea....
Maybe Montgomery would be nice.

Egypt
Ok

Greece:
Argh?? Give me Agamemnon or Pericles, Philip(macedonian still)


Russia:
Stalin thought he was a great general and he leads his Red Army. Great man for the hurry still(Russia war effort)
Zukhov? I would prefer Tchouikov(Stalingrad) or Joukov
Lenin....Brusilov better...

China:
Well Kublai Khan: ok cos the mongol were assimilated by the Chinese...
Ghengis Kahn: not really...


India:
Hmm...well I know some name but for the others...

Aztecs:
Same as India...


Zulu:
Unknown.....

Japanese:
Alright but a little more...


Babylon:
Ok but maybe too many....

France:
Argh so poor?
Napoleon ok...
Richelieu ok
Maybe Louis XIV...
De Gaulle: great leader but not a general who fights a lot
Leclerc maybe
Charlemagne ok
Clovis maybe or Phillipe Auguste?

	04-11-2001 23:14									#24
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quote: Originally posted by mmtt Richtoffen:??? If I remember quite well he was a luftwaffe officer during the WWII and the well known ace... But why a leader???

Actually, Richthofen was a pilot in WWI, but you're right: Why a leader?

	05-11-2001 01:22									#25
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Maximus isn't actually a too bad name because Pompey, a member of the triumvirate with Julius Caesar, was known as Pompey the great or Pompeius *Maximus*. That probably isn't what they were thinking of, but that's what I will think of.

	05-11-2001 02:06									#26
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quote: Originally posted by mmtt Iroquois: I know some of them. But if we have Sitting Bull why not Cochise or Geronimo?

Having Sitting Bull, Tecumseh and Red Cloud is bad as it is.
Where are Joseph Brant, Sagoyewatha, Tiyanoga (King Hendrick)?

	05-11-2001 07:11									#27
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*flips through book of military leaders*

I thought that rounding out a few of the civs with some better leaders would help...at least with more American, French and British leaders.

American:
Bradley, Omar Nelson
Crook, George
Custer, George Armstrong (How awful would it be to get this guy?)
Eisenhower, Dwight David (Why isn't he on there???)
Grant, Ulysses Simpson (Already there)
Jackson, Thomas Jonathon (US/CSA General)
Lee, Robert Edward (US Colonel, CSA General)
MacArthur, Douglas (Already there)
Marshall, George Catlett
Patton, George Smith (Already there)
Pershing, John Joseph
Ridgeway, Matthew Bunker
Scott, Winfield
Sheridan, Philip Henry
Sherman, William Techumseh
Stilwell, Joseph W.
Stuart, James Ewell Brown (CSA Cavalry General)
Taylor, Zachary
Washington, George
Wayne Anthony

Chinese:
Chu Teh
Giap, Vo Ngyuen (Vietnamese)

English:
Abercromby, Sir Ralph
Alanbrooke, Alan Francis Brooke
Alexander, Harold Rupert Leofric George , 1st Earl Alexander of Tunis (greatest british commander of WWII)
Allenby, Edmund Henry Hyman, 1st Viscount
Auchinleck, Sir Claude John Eyre
Boru, Brian (Irish)
Burgoyne, John
Campbell, Colin, Baron Clyde of Clydesdale
Cardigan, James Thomas Brudenell, 7th Earl of
Clive, Robert, Baron Clive of Plassey
Cornwallis, Charles, 1st Marquess Cornwallis (already listed)
Craufurd, Robert
Cromwell, Oliver (As a radical)
Cumberland, Wiliam
Edward I ("Malleus Scotorum")
Edward III
Edward Plantagenet
Fairfax, Thomas, 3rd Baron Fairfax of Cameron
Gordon, Charles George
Grahm, Thomas, 1st Baron Lynedoch
Haig, Douglas, 1st Earl of Bemersyde
Harold II, Godwinson
Havelock, Sir Henry
Henry V
Hill, Rowland, 1st Viscount Hill
Howe, George Augustus, 3rd Viscount Howe
Kitchener, Horatio Herbert, 1st Earl Kitchener of Khartoum
Lake, Gerard, 1st Vicsount Lake
Lawrence, Thomas Edward
Liddell-Hart, Sir Basil Henry
Marlborough, John Churchill, 1st Duke of (VERY important...can't believe he's not up there)
Montgomery, Bernard Law, 1st Viscount Montgomery of Alamein
Montrose, James Graham, 1st Marquis of (Scottish)
Moore, Sir John
Outram, Sir James
Paget, Henry William, 1st Marquis of Anglesey
Picton, Sir Thomas
Raglan, Fitzroy James Henry Somerset, 1st Baron
Richard I ("Coeur de Lion")
Roberts, Frederick Sleigh, 1st Earl of Kandahar, Pretoria, and Waterford
Slim, William Joseph, 1st Viscount Slim
Stirling, David
Wavell, Archibald Percival, 1st Earl Wavell of Cyrenaica
Wellington, Arthur Wellesley, 1st Duke of
William I ("The Bastard" and "The Conqueror")
Wingate, Orde Charles
Wolfe, James
Wolseley, Gernet Joseph, 1st Viscount Wolseley
Wood, Sir Henry Evelyn

French:
Bazaine, Franscois-Achille
Berthier, Louis-Alexandre, Prince de Neuchatel et Valangin, Prince de Wagram
Bigeard, Marcel
Boucicaut, Jean Le Meingre
Begeaud de la Piconnerie, Thomas Robert, Due d' Isly (Marshal of France)
Canrobert, Franscois Certain (Marshal of France)
Carnot, Lazare Nicolas Marguerite
Conde, Louis II de Bourbon, Prince de
Coote, Sir Eyre
Davout, Louis Nicolas, Duc d'Auerstadt, Prince d'Eckmuehl (Marshal of France)
De Gualle, Charles Andre Joseph Marie (Already listed)
Du Guesclin, Bertrand
Eugene, Prince (Franscois Eugene de Savoie-Carignon)
Foch, Ferdinand (Marshal of France)
Gamelin, Maurice Gustav
Gribeauval, Jean Baptiste de Vaquette
Henry IV
Jeanne d'Arc ("La Pucelle") (yeah...a leader...)
Joffre, Joseph Jacques Cesaire (Marshal of France)
Lafayette, Marie Joseph Paul Yves Roch Gilbert du Motier, Marquis de (yeah...the mercenary dude...)
Lattre de Tassigny, Jean de (Marshal of France)
La Vette, Jean Parisot de (not that important...)
Leclerc de Hautecloque, Philippe Franscois Marie
Lyautey, Louis Hubert Gonzalve (Marshal of France)
MacMahon, Maric Edme Patrice Maurice de, Due de Magenta (Marshal of France)
Massena, Andre, Due de Rivoli, Prince d'Essling
Montcalm, Louis-Joseph, Marquis de Montcalm-Gozon de Saint-Veran
Montfort-l'Amauri, SImon de, Comte de Toulouse
Murat, Hoachim, Prince Murat, Grand-Duc de Berg et de Cleves, Roi de Naples (Marshall of France)
Napoleon I, surnames Bonaparte
Ney, Michel, Due d'Elchingen, Prince de la Moskova (Marshall of France)
Nivelle, Robert Georges
Petain, Henri Philippe Omer (Marshal of France)
Rochambeau, Jean Baptiste Donatien de Vimueur, Comte de
Siant-Arnoud, Jacques Leroy de
Salan, Raoul
Saxe, Herman Maurice, Comte de (Marshal of France)
Soult, Nicolas-Jean de Dieu, Due de Damatie
Suchet, Louis-Gabriel, Due d'Albufera
Turenne, Henri de la Tour d'Auvergne, Vicomte de
Vauban, Sebastien le Prestre de
Vendome, Louis Joseph, Due de (Marshal of France)
Villars, Claude Louis Hector, Due de
Villiers de l'Isle Adam, Philippe

Germans:
Bluecher, Gebahrd Leberecht von, Prince of Wahlstadt
Clausewitz, Karl Von (Only available after Napoleon and Frederick the Great appear )
Dietrich, Josef ("Sepp"; SS General)
Fredrick I, ("Barbarossa")
Fredrick II, ("The Great") (yeah...a leader)
Gneisenan, August Wilhelm Anton, Graf Neidhardt von
Guderian, Heinz
Keitel, Wilhelm
Kesselring, Albrecht
Lettow-Vorbeck, Paul Emil von
Ludendorf, Erich von
Manstein, Fritz Erich von
Model, Walther
Moltke, Helmuth Karl Bernhard, Graf von
Rommel, Erwin
Rundstedt, Karl Rudolf Gerd von
Rupert, Prince
Scharnhorst, Gerhard Johann David von
Seydlitz, Friedrich Wilhelm, Freiherr von
Stueben, Friedrich Wilhelm Augustus
Tilly, Johann Tserclaes, Graf von
Wallenstein, Albrecht Eusebious Wenzel von, Duke of Friedland and of Mecklenburg

Indian:
Aurangzeb (Mohi-ud-Din Mohammed), Almgir I
Mahmud of Ghazni

Iroquis:
Geronimo (An Apache)
Joseph, Chief (Nez Perce)
Pontiac (Ottawa)

Japanese:
Hideyoshi Toyotomi
Tojo Hidecki
Yamashita Tomoyuki

Mongol: (Just because)
Genghiz Khan
Subatai Ba'adur
Timur-i-Leng

Romans:
Badoglio Pietro, Duke of Addis Ababa (WWII commander...I dunno if Italians would work for the Romans though)
Farnesse, Alessandro, Duke of Parma (Another Italian)
Graziani, Rodolfo, Marchese di Neghelli (ditto)

Russians:
Alexander Nevski
Budenny, Semyon Mikhailovich
Konev, Ivan Stepanovich
Kutuzov, Prince Mikhail Ilarionovich
Mannerheim, Varl Gustav Emil, Baron von (Finnish General, born in Estonia under Russian control)
Rokossovsky, Konstantin
Suvarov, Alexander Vasilevich
Timoshenko, Semion Konstantinovich
Zhukov, Georgi Konstantinovich

Spanish: (Because they were so important anyway)
Alvarez de Toledo, Fernando, Duke of Alva
Cid, El, Rodgrigo Diaz de Bivar
Corbdoba, Gonzalo de
Cortes, Hernando

	05-11-2001 08:00									#28
	Re: Re: Complete list of leaders, gleaned from editor Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Wulfram Why 3 mythical leaders? Why not Pericles, Demosthenes. Ptolemy (Alexanders general), Philip, Lysander and Leonidas. And why Ajax, he was just one of the people in the Trojan war, well actually there were two of them, but Agamemnon or Achilles were more significant. Finally why Ulysees, the roman name instead of Odysseus the Greek one. Edit: Who's Zhukov?

He defeated the allegedly invincible Japanese army at Nomonhan in Manchuria/Manchukuo in 1939. The Red Army also defeated them at Changkufeng on the Korean border.

	05-11-2001 08:16									#29
	Re: Re: Complete list of leaders, gleaned from editor Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion El Awrence - are you sure Kesselring is the name of a German general? sounds more like a strategy than like a name... a Kesselring... well, it is when one army surrounds the other army... not a name

Field Marshal Albrecht Kesselring, leader of Army Group Southwest in Italy, overall commander in Italy after the collapse of Mussolini's regime. Opposed the allies at Naples, then retreated via the Gustav line and then the Gothic line.

	05-11-2001 18:28									#30
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quote: Originally posted by master on high *flips through book of military leaders* Iroquis: Geronimo (An Apache) Joseph, Chief (Nez Perce) Pontiac (Ottawa)

Noooooooooo!!!!!
The civ is called "Iroquois", not "Amerind" (and not "Iroquis" either ).
There are plenty of real Iroquois military leaders to pick.