31-10-2001 23:46									#1
	They Released It Too Early Support Apolyton

It wasn't that long ago that SMAC was delayed from November to February and people were clamoring for Firaxis to release the game immediately, no matter what state it is in

Now we see what happens when they do.

Having only played for 4 hours so far, I can't really comment on the overall gameplay, other than to say that the core gameplay certainly looks releasable. Same thing with the enemy AI - too early to tell, but certainly good enough to release.

These two factors are obviously the soul of any game, and I'm glad that they look ok so far. However:

1. No wonder movies
I posted an earlier thread on "Short Wonder Movies" based on the avault review. The truth is that they are static shots with a change in lighting. Totally look like placeholders. Might as well have said "Insert Video Here When Ready"

2. Lame intro movie
Just not good enough to be part of a polished experience. I know, how many times have I bought a game with the exact opposite, cool intro lousy gameplay, but that still doesn't let Firaxis off the hook.

3. Editor
I don't know much about this, but look at other threads for limitations about the editor

4. Interface issues
How many moves does a unit have left? Damn if I know. Is that a settler, a worker, or a spearman? Can't tell without clicking. What's in my build queue? Have to click to see.
Interface issues bug me more than anything. It's why I had to return CTP2. Civ3 does a pretty good job of this, but it still feels 90% done.

5. Two levels of zoom
You can soom out, and then you can zoom back in. That seems to be about it, but maybe I've missed something.

I'm realizing that this is turning into a "really minor things that annoy me" list, and that's not my purpose in this post. All I'm saying is that, if I could sum up my early thoughts about this game, I think one thing: "rushed".

I'm not saying that this is a bad game. How can I say that after 4 hours of gameplay? I'm really hoping that it will be an engrossing and satisfying game that I'll play years later like, well, Civ2 and SMAC.

I guess I just expected more from Firaxis. I expected that they would make sure to polish a game to a high gloss before release. I just keep thinking about SMAC, and the 3 month delay, and how much that game held together (graphics aside).

Now if you'll excuse me, I'll go find the "LE is a joke" thread...

	01-11-2001 00:03									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Yup

The core game is playable and enjoyable - but think what might have been. . .

	01-11-2001 00:57									#3
	Re: They Released It Too Early Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by rockville 1. No wonder movies I posted an earlier thread on "Short Wonder Movies" based on the avault review. The truth is that they are static shots with a change in lighting. Totally look like placeholders. Might as well have said "Insert Video Here When Ready" 2. Lame intro movie Just not good enough to be part of a polished experience. I know, how many times have I bought a game with the exact opposite, cool intro lousy gameplay, but that still doesn't let Firaxis off the hook. 3. Editor I don't know much about this, but look at other threads for limitations about the editor 4. Interface issues How many moves does a unit have left? Damn if I know. Is that a settler, a worker, or a spearman? Can't tell without clicking. What's in my build queue? Have to click to see. Interface issues bug me more than anything. It's why I had to return CTP2. Civ3 does a pretty good job of this, but it still feels 90% done. 5. Two levels of zoom You can soom out, and then you can zoom back in. That seems to be about it, but maybe I've missed something.

1. They said months ago there would be NO wonder movies because there wasn't a need to put that much production into something 99% of the people would turn off after seeing it a few times.

2. See reason for number 1 except they didn't say it, I did, why waste resources on something you'll watch maybe three times before hitting "enter" or "Esc" to by-pass and get on with the game?

3. They have said they will upgrade the editor as well. The game was essentially done and they didn't feel it fair to deny people the ability to at least get a feel for and enjoy the game just because the editor wasn't completely how they wanted it yet.

4. Sound like valid concerns but clicking on the unit gives all this information you seek, the same as in Civ1 & Civ 2.

5. Yep, another level of zoom would have been nice but would you rather they had worked on even more graphics or the core AI and interface?

Yep, you're right, the post was a gripe about all the things *you* didn't like that were different than Civ2. Play it for another 40 hours and say how bad it still is, or take it back if the game bothers you that much.

	01-11-2001 01:03									#4
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

"They" should be Infogrames, not Firaxis. It was Infogrames that set the release date and distributed the game. Firaxis did what it had to do in order to meet the early deadline to get it to the manufacturer.

	01-11-2001 01:13									#5
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I still say they made a big mistake with wonder movies.

Think of it this way. Even though us hardcore civ guys turn it off, they already know most of us will buy the game either way.

But they are missing out on potential sales from the general public. You might have an average guy only play the game modestly but be impressed enough with the wonder movies to make it look like a fantastic game. He then recommends the game to other who buy it.

I still think the movies could have paid for themselves and then some.

I really enjoyed the wonder movies the first time I played civ2. Yes I eventually started playing without the cd so I didn't have the option. Or I just hit the space bar. But I watched them quite a number of times (esp. the hoover dam, since it is near where I live, and I like the looks of it). Makes building a wonder that much more satisfying.

	01-11-2001 01:22									#6
	Re: They Released It Too Early Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: [SIZE=1] All I'm saying is that, if I could sum up my early thoughts about this game, I think one thing: "rushed".

That was my first thought immediately after I read the -superficially enthusiastic- reviews, but when I said something like there is probably an anthill full of small but significant problems, Imran came over, hit me on my head with a brick and said I was trolling...

To be fair, I have also read a number of good things about the AI that seem plausible enough, so I believe the game will not be another CtPII, just a mixed blessing...

	01-11-2001 01:32									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Well, if you aren't trolling then you are making a mountain out of a molehill. Very small problems I've seen to date.

It seems like people thought the game would be perfect .

	01-11-2001 01:42									#8
	Re: Re: They Released It Too Early Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune Imran came over, hit me on my head with a brick and said I was trolling...

Imran doesn't seem to be like most people mentally. Maybe you were trolling but didn't notice it yet he was able to pick up on it.

Back on track - I take your point that these are all niggling annpyances, but none of these are major nor should they majoryl impact the enjoyment of the game with what sounds like vastly improved AI and graphics over it's predecesor.

As for your 4th point, it'll grow on you. Things take time. Though how you expect to get information without ever clicking your mouse is beyond me

Sounds like a whole new level of laziness.

	01-11-2001 03:37									#9
	Re: Re: Re: They Released It Too Early Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Faboba As for your 4th point, it'll grow on you. Things take time. Though how you expect to get information without ever clicking your mouse is beyond me Sounds like a whole new level of laziness.

You are lazy yourself; otherwise you wouldn´t mistake me for Rockwell.

I was referring to another thread.

	01-11-2001 04:18									#10
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Civ3's OPEN BETA has begun!

Step 1: Merely purchase the Civ3 Beta online or at many stores near you for approximately $50.

Step 2: Test the game for us. If you can, please fix the MP code, the missing editor features, sloppy graphics coding, etc. We saw this was possible with the CtP code ... and we hope to live up to the CtP standard.

Step 3: Pay an additional $35 for the "real" Civ 3, which will be called an 'X-Pack,' which is just hip FIRAXIS talk for "Passable Product." Don't worry: The fools who didn't already join the Beta Program won't have the previous version so they can't install the X-Pack! They'll have to wait MONTHS to get the game that way! LOL! Hey, you're a beta tester ... you deserve a bone.

Step 4: In the future, rush to buy anything we throw out the door, no matter how obviously rushed the game is or no matter how we will undoubtedly lie to your face and purposely keep you misinformed so we can rip a few more dollars from you. And if people say any of the bugs are our fault, you will be required to say: "Hey, INFOGRAMES made all the decisions!" Because, as we know, Sid is God.

Thanks, and welcome to the team:

FIRAXIS!

	01-11-2001 04:27									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

so true.

	01-11-2001 04:27									#12
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

They will release a patch to fix any small bugs .. the things you mention are very trivial, and in no way affect the game.
I get bored of the movies , after a few times they get repetitive.
Sure they could have spent months more on the interface but it wouldn't be worth the wait.

Civ3 will be well worth the money , and I can't wait to get my hands on it

admiral Peter

	01-11-2001 04:39									#13
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Glad you kept your humour, Yin!

Always refreshing to read your posts; but be sure not to make too many critical remarks, otherwise you will be accused of 'trolling'!

	01-11-2001 04:55									#14
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Dissident I still say they made a big mistake with wonder movies. Think of it this way. Even though us hardcore civ guys turn it off, they already know most of us will buy the game either way. But they are missing out on potential sales from the general public. You might have an average guy only play the game modestly but be impressed enough with the wonder movies to make it look like a fantastic game. He then recommends the game to other who buy it. I still think the movies could have paid for themselves and then some. I really enjoyed the wonder movies the first time I played civ2. Yes I eventually started playing without the cd so I didn't have the option. Or I just hit the space bar. But I watched them quite a number of times (esp. the hoover dam, since it is near where I live, and I like the looks of it). Makes building a wonder that much more satisfying.

I agree. Wonder movies really drew me into Civ2 as a newbie to computer games and to civ.

	01-11-2001 05:07									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

CT: Yes, I think even if I were to post something *good* about Civ3, a number of people here would say I am trolling. Keep up the fight!

	01-11-2001 05:24									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Admiral PJ They will release a patch to fix any small bugs .. the things you mention are very trivial, and in no way affect the game.

I wouldn't bet on it Colonel Sanders. You obviously haven't played Alpha Centauri have you?

	01-11-2001 05:36									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

After five years, I still watch wonder movies. They are my reward for finishing them.

	01-11-2001 05:44									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

the wonder movies, are my chance to lean back in my chair, grip my hands behind my head, let out a smirk and a smug sigh and congratulate myself on being so clever

	01-11-2001 05:46									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Well as for the wonder movies, I watched them once and turned them off. I found in Civ II they just were an annoying sidetrack.

And the Throne Room went off immediately.

As for the movies being a reward. I found actions within the game like finally taking a city that had been very hard to fell as more reward

Snappa

	01-11-2001 06:14									#20
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Snappa And the Throne Room went off immediately. Snappa

Well, from what I read here, you can't turn off the new Castle now. So I guess you want a patch like the rest (including those who are waiting for it to arrive like me) of us?

	01-11-2001 06:19									#21
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I never turned off the throne room. it was an indication how good I was doing.

often times I would get an improvement after just 1 turn. You know I'm kicking ass from the get go when that happens.

	01-11-2001 06:24									#22
	Tired of ads?

I wouldn't bet on it Colonel Sanders. You obviously haven't played Alpha Centauri have you?





Now this I just don't understand. I purchased Alpha Centauri, and I played it extensively. I also purchased the expansion pack, and played that extensively. I downloaded the patches. I loved both games. Worked fine. Why are people always mentioning AC in the context of a buggy, poorly supported game? Mine ran smooth and it was supported just fine.

What's the big beef with Alpha Centauri?

	01-11-2001 06:26									#23
	Got spare money?

"I refuse to answer on the grounds that it might incriminate me..."

or

"I can't recall" -- Ronald Reagan

	01-11-2001 07:38									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Wonder movies suck......what the hell was so great about them?????

You saw them once! Big deal, pretty exciting eh

After seeing them once its like watching the same movie over and over again.....extremely boring.



Anyway quit your *****in. The majority is happy these stupid memory consuming clips are absent

	01-11-2001 07:42									#25
	Support Apolyton

It's a sign of professionalism and dedication.

	01-11-2001 07:59									#26
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

i dont give a **** about wonder movie what so great about it??? Its only a major waste of time

	01-11-2001 08:02									#27
	Increase Your PM Length

And hard disk


Plus it scares the **** out of you on your first game


To hell with the lame wonder movies!!

Sign of professionalism????? Do you have a life/job Dashi? Its a game....

	01-11-2001 08:03									#28
	Tired of ads?

I dont give a **** about wonder movie what so great about it??? Its only a major waste of time and i dont care about the editor as far we can make a starwars mod.

	01-11-2001 08:12									#29
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by faded glory Sign of professionalism????? Do you have a life/job Dashi? Its a game....

No, but that's beside the point.

The movies show a level of quality. I remember being quite impressed when I first saw the CivII movies. They really made me feel that the game was more than just something made in some nerd's basement. SMAC short, crappy movies reflected a short, crappy game. Clearly, Sid and company have lost their passion for the genre long ago. Now it truly is 'just a game.'

	01-11-2001 08:40									#30
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by ProfessorPhobos Now this I just don't understand. I purchased Alpha Centauri, and I played it extensively. I also purchased the expansion pack, and played that extensively. I downloaded the patches. I loved both games. Worked fine. Why are people always mentioning AC in the context of a buggy, poorly supported game? Mine ran smooth and it was supported just fine. What's the big beef with Alpha Centauri?

Admittedly I've played the game for more than a year, but it annoys me nonetheless that there were some bugs, major and minor, that were never addressed. Lets see I try to name the major ones.

The TerranX crashes that many people claim to have gotten, though I never had one. No Golden Age pop booms in SMAC. The maintence bug in SMAC. The stockpile energy bug in both. The infinite drop bug. Trading bases with the AI bug. The AI. The multiple way point demon boil bug. The infinite AI missle range bug. The Angles bug of having their Probe rating reset after +3. Several MP bugs that allowed players to alter other players production. The MP bugs that allowed players to kick other players out of their territory without consent. The MP probe bug that allows probing without notification. Screwed up formuals such as the incorrect ecodamage formula. Etc, etc.

Yes the game ran fine, and granted that if I was a casual gamer I probably wouldn't be put off, but I was hoping that CivIII would be a little cleaner than SMAC and I'm not convinced yet. And without MP I'm not sure I'm all that interested (I know, personal preference). Perhaps because CIV is their flag ship they'll spend more time ironing out the bugs, but I don't know. I'm skeptical because of my last experiences with their previous games. I'm also skeptical becasue whereas like you, who claims to have played SMAC and SMACX extensively, hadn't found fault with it, yet I felt the game was unfinished, so when I read all these people worshipping the virtues of the game I'm still quite hesitant.