14-06-2000 18:49									#1
	Making a turk's scenario Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Hy to everybody!
I'm going to create a new scenario ( "the rise of Kok-turks"); but first i want to ask a few questions to all of you .
I mean, i need no hints about it: before starting, i have read a few books about the Kok-turks and China.
Instead, i'm interested in how you usually create your personal scenarios - perhaps this will make me a better designer ....

	14-06-2000 20:36									#2
	Full PM-box? Change here!

First of all before anything else I need two things. They are a lot of patients and a lot of time. Nothing goes before patients!
Of course a good idea is what I need before hand but that's ovious isn't it?
Then I started reading some guids on the net and the hints and tips section of civ sites to see how other people do things. I tried many things myself to see what effects they have.
That's about all I need to have besides good sources and, when I want to make new grafics, nice pictures to work from.

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Mathias' Civ II Page
http://members.xoom.com/thalys/index.html

	15-06-2000 01:13									#4
	Inflate your Upload Space

I'm refering to well known texts like "Advanced Scenario Making Ideas" by Leon Maverick and Harlan Thompson I believe.
That one taught my a lot! I think I'm going to try to find the latest version and put it up at my website...
But also got the Sid League at http://sleague.apolyton.net and check out thier design tips section.

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Mathias' Civ II Page
http://members.xoom.com/thalys/index.html

	15-06-2000 17:18									#6
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Thanks, i''l do that !!!
But i am still a little puzzled.
I think an example will show it to you in a better way: when i build a new "ancient Mediterranean" scenario, i have - for example - to estabilish the opponent infantries' strenght.

First point to keep in mind: we have the equivalence "Western mediterranean infantry = swordmen, Eastern mediterranean infantry = spearmen".
So we have these results :
a) a swordman must have a bit more movement points then a spearman, as well as a bit more offensive points;
b) a spearman is often a phalanx-like fighter - he's trained to fight in formations; this HIGHLY DECREASES defensive points - phalanx tactic worked only in well closed formations: the more closed it evolved, the less offensive it became.
Non-phalanx Eastern infantries were almost useless.

Another point to fix: the Western infantries were often expensive units (2) and they always needed a quite long training period (3) than the correlatives Eastern infantries ( lightly armored and cheap to train - with a lonely exception : the Greek phalanx ).

How can i use in my scenario the results i've found without creating a - how can i say - "power gap" between the opposite civilizations ?
Even in my newcoming scenario, i can't well estabilish how much a particular civilization unit does it cost ( ex. the Chinese heavy chavalry, the Persian light chavalry or the Eftalite infantry ).

(1) The battle of Qadesh is a very good example: Egyptian infantry was nearly crushed by the Hittites chariots' charge because it wasn't in its formation ranks ( the men were resting a little during the Qadesh' siege ).
(2) especially when they were mercenaries - ex. Carthage's Lybian, Celtic or Iberian infantry
(3) ex. the Roman legion.

	15-06-2000 23:10									#7
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Ahh, yes...I think I get it now! The unit stats are always an point of problem.
As nice as it may be to be absolutely historically accurate you may not forget the limitations of the Civ game engine. The problem you are facing can IMO only be solved by a compromise.
At first I would allocate the strength of the units as I would like to have it regardless of matters as game balance and so on and then adjust up- or downwards after playtesting until there is a balance that comes out of unit strentgh or because of numbers. If one sides units are really very good make the other sides' units, if they are really weaker, far cheaper and thuse faster to produce.
I use military books about the strenght and weaknesses of armies often.

To work with your example I would make the eastern infanteries stronger in their defense than the western ones but the western one should be far better at attacking. It's really hard how I do things like that. It is a lot of playing around with the values and see what happens.

When asigning costs you need to take into account how high the average production of most cities will most likely be. The unit has to be buildable in a somewhat reasonable time. One side should definitly not have all the cheap units and the other all the expensive ones. Costs on both sides need to be reasonable in aspect to the production power of the respective civs and the opponent. If you want the computer to be a real challenge make all his units relativly cheap and the units of the human player relativly expensive. But don't over-do this. it still has to be fun. That's always important. You can give the player a situation that may be almost hopeless and with all the odds against him but never a situation that cannot, no matter what, be mastered.

The thing about the egytian infantery i.e. you could do is to give the chariots a movement of 2 or above. Do not give the egyptians units the 2* against units with a movement of two flag but a move of only 1.
Also you can use the hitpoints and firepoints to you advantage. Give the chariots a high fire power so they can win fast. Make sure the hitpoints of the inf is not to high( 1 or 2).

This is far from complete but I hope it gives you an idea on how to start.

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Mathias' Civ II Page
http://members.xoom.com/thalys/index.html
[This message has been edited by Hendrik the Great (edited June 15, 2000).]

	16-06-2000 00:40									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I looked around and I found the guides I had on my mind.
Go visit Mercator's Civilization Site at: http://civ2.sidgames.com and go to the Guides section. You can read them online or download them there. I emailed Jorrit if I could put all the guides he has on my page; just for your information.

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Mathias' Civ II Page
http://members.xoom.com/thalys/index.html
[This message has been edited by Hendrik the Great (edited June 15, 2000).]

	16-06-2000 13:07									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Hurrah !!! it's a very good hint !!!
Ooops, just two little questions: do you often change the images and/or resources in terrain1.gif file
( from TUNDRA to a new topic, ex. SAVANNAH )?
How about using a terrain in order to perform an extra MOUNTAIN resource ( ex. silver )?

	16-06-2000 14:22									#10
	Full PM-box? Change here!

To answer your new question; It really depends on what I want to do in the scenario. I can't say I do it often since I have only made 2 scenarios so far although a 3rd is in the works.
Let me tell you how I will do this in my next scenario.
Since it is about the Vikings and plays mainly around the North Atlantic it's clear there are no deserts and jungls there. I'm using them for new terrain typs like lava fields in Island and northern forests with needle trees so I have two types of forests.
Also I will replace the plains with a new kind of grassland that is more common for northern climates. Of course I will also use resources that do exist in those regions. So there will be no buffalos in Island.
I do advice to check out some geological and vegetation maps for the mountains and other terrains. If you are lucky you may be able to find some online.
I hardly use a terrain just to make one new mountain resource unless of course you want it to be totally unique. Rather change the resources of hills or mountains to accomedate for this.

If you should new historic accounts or maps you might want to check out the Resource Page of my Civ website. Just follow the link in my signature and go to the Resources.

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Mathias' Civ II Page
http://members.xoom.com/thalys/index.html

	16-06-2000 14:36									#11
	Put an end to popups!

I usually change a terrain into a new resource in order to perform another one more available in the scenario's area ( ex. TUNDRA for silver resource in MOUNTAIN Spanish peninsula ).

P.S. i use silver example because silver is often associated to other mineral resources, so this way i'm able to use original TUNDRA resources ( ex. i can use them to perform lead or crystal gems ).

I read yo're going to made a Viking scenario: if you need a terrain picture depicting ICED TAIGA, just make a whistle to

fratelli.goddi@tiscalinet.it

[This message has been edited by Prometeus (edited June 16, 2000).]

	17-06-2000 01:51									#12
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Prometeus

It's true that you can not make some units slightly more mobile or some units with greater range, but remember you can always just adjust the attack, defense, hp, and firepower values to reflect this. Heck you could also adjust these to show problems with morale, size of units, and the ability of the commander of a certain side to use the unit effectively (I think this was done to German units in Red Front).

	17-06-2000 14:08									#13
	Increase Your PM Length

I see no problems with what you want to use the terrain for.

Do you have such a terrain ready made at your hand? I think I will use the whistle...
However, I want to make my own terrains for this scenario, I mean before I use someone's elses work I want to try at least.


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Mathias' Civ II Page
http://members.xoom.com/thalys/index.html

	17-06-2000 16:56									#14
	Put an end to popups!

Perhaps i failed to express myself.
Do you think this change will works better in a "big" than in a "small" map ?

P.S. the rise of the Kok Turks was dued to the fact they were Juan-Juan's ironsmiths, making for them on Altai mountains - a BIG mineral region at the time - high quality weaponry, so when they revolted, it was no problem for them to rise a powerfull army and to get rid of their former masters
( i 'm planning to let them begin with only one town )...

	17-06-2000 17:21									#15
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I don't really know. What do you understand under a big and a small map?

Some thoughts: The bigger the map the bigger that region will be. So the larger will be the chance that someone else will built a town in or near these areas and thuse will also profit from it. Try to find a medium size and make sure the other aread near to it is not something some one would like to settle.

Is that what you mean? I'm no native speaker of englisch either so I sometimes tend to misunderstand things easily.

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Mathias' Civ II Page
http://members.xoom.com/thalys/index.html

	17-06-2000 18:04									#16
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Sorry, i'd rather to erase this post; the words seems blasphemies ( someting like %%%% )... because my PC system crashed. Wait a minute ...
[This message has been edited by Prometeus (edited June 17, 2000).]

	17-06-2000 18:10									#17
	Put an end to popups!

I'm not "inglisc" too ( i'm italian ) so ...

Don't worry, you got the point of the problem. Thanks a lot !!! Perhaps a medium size map will fit better to my purposes ...

A Question To ALL
Just a little question. I've found on my PC a weird Civ2 bug: destroying a barbarian's settler unit ( with 0 movement points and defensive points more than 0 ) gives to winner ( human or computer AI, it's the same ) the destroyed barbarian's guide reward ... so i estabilished to use this feature to perform passive barbarian and/or small Chinese chiefdoms-tribes in my Chung Kuo scenario ( the seventh scenario i made, now available on Net at Apolyton review section ) - ravage, indeed, was common in Warring States warfare.
Now, i'm puzzled: "Maybe this bug works only on my PC ...".
Do you want to check this weird bug ? Just in case, send a feedback; my e-mail is
fratelli.goddi@tiscalinet.it
[This message has been edited by Prometeus (edited June 19, 2000).]

	22-06-2000 14:52									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Thanks a lot guys !!! I'll send a topic for my "Rise of Kok-Turks" scenario's test in about 2 or 3 weeks from now ...