01-11-2001 21:42									#1
	Is Large Map (spaceship) harder or easier? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

When reading this forum, I get the impression that the larger the map, the harder it is to win (not only conquer/bloodlust, also space race).

I'm still learning this game. Last week I played my first two games at King level. In the first one (NORMAL map, 7 civs, restless tribes), I had a hard time winning. The Spanish launched before me, but by building the fastest ship (33/8,8/1,1,1), I arrived two years before them, in 1968. I had to sell many improvements though, exhausted my 10,000 gold in rushbuying, got nuked several times and lost some cities between launch and arrival.
In the second game (LARGE map, 7 civs, raging hordes), I was allowed to develop with hardly any enemy interference. I now reached AC 85 years earlier, in 1883, the other civs were far away, many large islands and subcontinents were still unoccupied, with lots of goodie huts intact.
So does this mean that in a space race game, the larger the map, the easier it is to win?

	01-11-2001 23:51									#2
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It's two sided. Science advances will need more beakers. However you'll have more huts to pop, and you can set up a more profitable two-continental trading system since trade bonus increases with distance. So if you explore more at the beginning and trade more in later stages, you'll probably find larger maps easier for spaceship race.

	02-11-2001 13:07									#3
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I don't think it matters nearly as much as the terrain and in particular specials you have to work with.
A large map with good terrain is probably easier than a small map on dirt and rocks.
Terrain is everything.

	02-11-2001 18:20									#4
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Another factor is that the AI's cheats, especially its production cheats, work better on a large map than a small one, because it generally has more cities to work with/cheat from. This becomes a disadvantage at the ship biulding stage (once they steal your technology), but is also a disadvantage if you rely heavily on wonders, since they'll race you more agressively for them. On the other hand -- and maybe this is what you found in your game -- your ability to spread out means you can build caravans like crazy, which is a definite plus.

	02-11-2001 21:43									#5
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Oldenbarnevelt,

If you're just starting King level, then you'll find strategy refinement to be more helpful than changing map sizes. It seems you already know quite a bit if you're building fast spaceships and are selling improvements to speed your launch.

From your comments, it seems you play an isolationist strategy (build up your empire and hope no one bothers you). For this, a larger map can be good for AC (spaceship to Alpha Centari) simply because you don't get any AI interference.

As you refine your AC strategy, I think you'll find it helpful to establish trade routes with the AI. Every time you establish a route, you get a bunch of gold and an equal number of science beakers. Also the permanent trade arrows you get every turn from your trade routes will help you to both research more quickly and to rush-buy your infrastructure more quickly. If you can outpace the AI in research, then their attacks at spaceship time won't be as effective, even if they're physically near you.

Also, have you heard of the Super Science City (SSC)? A SSC combined with regular caravan delivery will make your research explode (in a good way).

	03-11-2001 00:02									#6
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Yes, I build a science city (Colossus etc.), and a super production city (veteran units) as well.
I know the advantages of foreign trade, but my problem is that, as an isolationist, I don't know the location of most "demand" cities until very late in the game, so I suppose I can't send my caravans/freights there. Besides, most of my caravan production is used for wonder building. (But now I'm beginning to realize that even some high-rated wonders (like Great Wall, Great Library, Leonardo) are not all-important (at least at King level), so I'll give real trade a try.).

	03-11-2001 13:14									#7
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The easy way to find the location of demanding cities, and still play isolationist, is to target Marco Polo's as one of your wonders. If you're building a science city, you'll pull out front in techs fairly quickly; if you have Marco Polo, you can give techs away to the AI, make them worshipful, and then trade maps. If you do this early enough (say, before gunpowder), you won't give away techs that they can us against you, and you'll have plenty of time to pull ahead again.

Of course, doing this will reveal your location to the AI, but don't worry -- the cheating little buggers knew it all along.

	05-11-2001 21:43									#8
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Oldenbarnevelt,

Excellent advise from Rufus T. Firefly. In the early game (which is when you'll probably build Marco Polo's Embassy), the AI is much more amenable to trading with you. Give them a few techs and they'll trade maps.

In the early game, most of my caravans are used for wonders too. A notable exception is setting up three good trade routes from my SSC as soon as possible. As you've already noted, you might be able to skip some of the wonders you build.

The Great Wall isn't all that important if you keep up good relations with the AI. You can build city walls in select cities where the AI is being aggressive. You should be able to fend off barbarians with a couple quick counter-attackers (e.g. horsemen or crusaders) or better yet, bribe them with diplomats.

The Great Library is flawed because of Civ2's curious research system. Every time you get a "free" tech from the Library, it makes your next tech that much harder to research. This bites you two ways:

1) It delays your race for key wonders by giving you techs "out of order".

Let's say your expansion is making your citizens unhappy and you need to get Michaelangelo's Cathedral before the AI does. Looking at the tech tree you see you just need horseback riding and polytheism. No problem. But wait, the Russians have just discovered iron working and it gets added to the techs you know. Then the Egyptians discover construction and you get that from the Library. When the Carthaginians become the second civ to discover Feudalism, you find you've had to gain two or three times as many beakers to research the monotheism techs than you would of had to without the Great Library. All this extra time spent researching is also extra time fighting against pre-Michaelangelo unhappiness - losing workers to entertainers and spending precious money and shields on happiness improvements.

2) It delays your overall research rate by forcing you to carry junk techs.

You may think "Hey, I'm going for Alpha Centarti, so I'm going to have to research all the techs anyway." This isn't true. In order to get Leonardo's Workshop, you're going to need to get the wheel, right? Wrong. You can run up the tech tree happily ignoring the wheel and then trade for engineering right before you research invention. This way - not only do you not have the wheel in your bag of known techs slowing down your research of invention - you probably never have the wheel in your bag of techs, thus reducing the cost of every single tech you research! If you're a peace-loving spaceship builder, you may never have to research warrior code, the wheel, iron working, chivalry, and a host of other techs. When you need machine tools for miniaturization/offshore platforms, there's no need for leadership, chivalry, horseback riding, etc. All you need to trade for is tactics (or possibly leadership depending on how backwards the AI is) and skip all the other prerequisites.

So not only does the Great Library mess with the timing of your techs (which is important for building wonders) but it also delays your overall climb up the tech tree.

It's interesting to note that Civ3's tech tree is laid out differently with different set costs for different techs. I haven't been keeping up with the Civ3 info - but it looks like in Civ3, the Great Library will make a comeback since you'll no longer be penalized for knowing techs.

	06-11-2001 22:43									#9
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Thanks, Rufus and Edward, for your helpful comments.

	07-11-2001 03:25									#10
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I like large maps - the terrain is better. As Xin says trading possibilities are greater. Trade with yourself on two continents or with the AI when you find their locations.

The quick way to win is to have a large empire - this doesn't have to be Classic ICS. (There is a difference between a civilisation with many cities and ICS)

1) Monarchy
2) Trade
3) Build Hanging Gardens
4) Build Colossus in the same city
5) Build Marco Polo's Embassy. Pick and choose your exchanges carefully! (If you can build the science wonders it may help - or may distract you on the path to Democracy)
6) The rest of research is aimed at Democracy and the Statue of Liberty. With the HG you can withstand unhappiness. I am not a big fan of Republic - corruption is awful and a Senate that interferes is tiresome. I like Monarchy during the expansion period as Settlers only use one food icon.

With SoL you have the following options:
a) Fundy and conquest
b) Communism - either conquest or AC. (In some games you don't know :confused
c) Democracy - AC
Government style is all important for your objectives. Once you have the right politics life is simple. Now tell that to the real World.

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SG(2)