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Prometeus
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of Old Europe - "In America we don't trust"
Jun 2000
time: 06:12
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If you're going to made a restiling of Rome Civ2 scenario, remember that Carthage's fleet was mainly composed by biremis ships ( they preferred velocity - yikes, speed ), Romans preferred more heavy models instead ( quinquiremis-like ). Macedonian fleet also was a lot composite and ...
weird: since Antigonus II Gonatas and A. III Doson, they kept in line various kinds of ships, from the illiric "limbus" model ( a kind of ultra-light ship ), to more heavy ones, as well as heavily-armoured ships ( they were the decisive weapon at the naval battle of Andros against Egyptian fleet, mainly composed of light biremis or triremis).
Seleucid fleet was a "quantitè negligeable".
Too bad you can't perform Greek Rodian fleet in its full glory ( have you even see the "Navarch's" mausoleum on Rodi's island? ).
The Celtic fleet ... well, check out Caesar's "De bello gallico" about Venetic's tribe fleet, or later authors about Brittonic or Pictic-scots models - or send me an e-mail, i've made some rip-off from Rise and Rules of Ancient Empires a long time ago.
[This message has been edited by Prometeus (edited June 20, 2000).]
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Prometeus
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of Old Europe - "In America we don't trust"
Jun 2000
time: 06:12
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Yup, i'm quite sure about that.
First - the proportion of Carthage war fleet was 1 to 1 ( i mean one biremis/triremis for every pentera/heavier ship ) - according to my source book "The Phoenician travels".
Second - during the First Punic War, a Carthaginian admiral ( Aderbal/Hamilcar/whateverhewasnamed ) planned this strategy: "Instead of one big fleet, let's make a lot of small ones, in order to reach and ravage Italic coastal towns. A small fleet'll escape Roman's naval surveillance more better than a big one...",
and a biremis suited better for such kind of piracy tactics ( Carthage owned Western Sicily at the time, it was no problem for coastal travelling ships to reach Italy ).
Yeap, you're right, also Carthage's warfleet used penteras/quinquiremis and heavier ships; to be more exact Carthaginian builded the most heaviest phoenician ships ( note: and when i say a LOT, i mean they builded a lot: the Carthage's military Arsenal was a big construction - it stored from 300 to 400 SHIPS, according to a historical newspaper;pratically, it stored the most of carthaginian fleet ! Also, just in case, 200 heavier models can be managed to stay out near commercial docks - maybe they were too heavy to put them into, what a bunch of lazy-bones)... only they where not the favourite war ones - they were a supply/commercial-reserved kind.
Yesss, Romans started later then Greeks or Carthaginians ( they hated sea so badly they called him "the fool's field" ).
Indeed, a wreched Carthaginian "pentera" was the initial model for the making of the Roman Navy ( all the work was done by Italic Greek allies - talking of lazy-bones - because in Rome were less than 100 people able to build a ship! ). Don't forget the "corvus" trick adopted by Romans !!!
Another cute trick in ancient sea warfare was the Rodian Pausistratus' one, the "fire-pot" : a pot, fixed to a wood bar and filled with fired coals, in order to be drawned on enemies by teasing a rope ( it was the "Greek fire" ancestor ).
According to this book, the Egyptyan planned-to-be-build ship should become a QUADRIGINTAREMIS ( 400 !!! ).
[This message has been edited by Prometeus (edited June 20, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Prometeus (edited June 20, 2000).]
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Stefan Härtel
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Eddie's best friend
Jul 1999
time: 06:12
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Here's the information:
Werner Huß, "Karthago"
C.H. Beck, (from the "Beck'sche Reihe: Wissen"), Munich 1995.
Itis my primary source of information about Carthage, and I highly recommend it, as well as all other books from this series (you can find it in virtually every german book store: They're the thin colourful ones, all available for DM 14,80).
There is also another one in this series about Hannibal- excellently written, very informative and with lots of maps.
You can also look for "So lebten die Karthager" by Charles-Picard, but this one can be found only in second-hand bookshops as it was published in 1959.
The "Fischer Weltgeschichte" has also published a book about Rome and Carthage ("Der Hellenismus und der Aufstieg Roms"). They're the thick black-and white ones, all available for DM 26,90 (although they are not as widely spread). I haven't got that one, but I ave 4 others and think it's recommendable too.
Prometheus:
The quote does not say much more than that the Carthaginians built Penteconteres, Tetreres, Trieres, and Penteres, as well as the capture of the flagship of Pyrrhos of Epeiros, the Heptere.
By the Way, I have never heard of the Alessandria - wait: scanning my sources: nope.
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18-06-2000 23:14
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