02-11-2001 04:09									#1
	OK I'm getting seriously PO'd about AI Trespassing!!!!!! Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

It is beginning to be clear to me that CivIII has the same problem CTP had.. the AI refuses to stop enterinf my territory. I am teh most powerful nation on earth but apparently.. there is a sign at the border "Come in and romp!". 10 jillion times ive clicked on removal of troops. Ghandi and his elephants are the worst.

It appears the AI sticks to its own borders as long as its not at war with someone whose territory can be reached the fasted through your territory. This seems to override everything.. March at all costs!!!
(Just call us teh doormat Civilization..)


I like the game.. I've waited eagerly for ages but this is enough to turn me from fan to complaintant. I can wait for faster scroll, mods and MO.. but this is just plain silly. Even fortresses cant stop these trespassers.

	02-11-2001 04:16									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

That never happened to me. The AI sticks to its borders most of the time. It it bothers you so much discuss right of passage(or kill him), but if the only way into enemy territory is through you what do you expect him to do?

	02-11-2001 04:19									#3
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Err.. how about them proposing a right of passage.. NOPE not a chirp everybody and their brother's dog is now trespassing in my territory. I'm just going to start another game this is just getting stupid. PC wins bu sheer stupidity..:P

	02-11-2001 04:24									#4
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Yup, happened to me all the time - they just wander all over the place - like a dog without a leash - frustrating.

Wasn't this problem supposed to have been fixed in Civ3 with borders?

Apparently not. . .

	02-11-2001 04:37									#5
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Zizka Err.. how about them proposing a right of passage.. NOPE not a chirp everybody and their brother's dog is now trespassing in my territory. I'm just going to start another game this is just getting stupid. PC wins bu sheer stupidity..:P

Trust me starting over won't help, they WILL do it again. This is the single biggest problem with the game so far IMO.

I wonder if it's something that can be fixed in a patch. Not gonna hold my breath though.

	02-11-2001 04:42									#6
	disappointing Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I don't have the game yet but trespassing is one of the things I really hoped they had fixed. It drove me crazy in Civ2 and CTP2. A neighbour comes into your land uninvited and fortifies near a city. You ask him to leave and he says he's sick of your attitude and declares war. Crap. I hope this doesn't ruin the game for me when I get it.

	02-11-2001 04:46									#7
	Put an end to popups!

I agree wholeheartedly. This problem almost has me dreading playing again just to put up with the aggravation of it all.

Gee and when you think of all the hype about borders HAHHAHAHA.. what a laugh.. SMAC was better with border control!!!! Did firaxis "break" something.

code may look like
If (destination_hex != mine)
{act like an idiot and ignore it}
else
{ do

	02-11-2001 04:46									#8
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

the only people that do it with me are the indians, they keep putting settles through my land, and now im killing them!

	02-11-2001 04:47									#9
	Tired of ads?

Haven't seen them fortify yet but they don't waste any time moving on in and hanging out. Really annoying when they do it with Settlers because you KNOW they're moving into areas your culture hasn't eclipsed yet but will soon.

	02-11-2001 04:48									#10
	Got spare money?

I agree wholeheartedly. This problem almost has me dreading playing again just to put up with the aggravation of it all.

Gee and when you think of all the hype about borders HAHHAHAHA.. what a laugh.. SMAC was better with border control!!!! Did firaxis "break" something.

code may look like :
If (destination_hex != mine)
{act like an idiot and ignore it}
else
{ do
destination_hex = sent_army_randomlyABOUT();
until destination_hex !=mine
cout >> "Muhahaha" }
endif

:P

	02-11-2001 06:44									#11
	Tired of ads?

I love the arpalala.... the island type maps and I just hate it when another civ comes in and plops down a base in between mine....

I know borders should help this but when the Ai want to put a base in a see of glacial squares (that I am smart enough not to do) seperating a couple of my basese from the enmasse wtf you going to do.. start a wor... I'd rather not.. mind you these bases will be a size 2 for quite awhile..

better hope the chinese dont piss me off


in reguards to units running around in your territory, try adding bunkers at choke points... if your lucky enough to find them

	02-11-2001 06:56									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Not only do the Chinese refuse to honor my border, but after I walled off the border with forts and units, they decided to have a galley do ferry duty. The damn thing is picking them up in their territory, then dropping them off in mine -- and returning to do it over and over again. All so they can get through my space to fight the French.

Smart. I'm getting more respect for the AI than I ever had in Civ2. I like it. After all, if you're too weak to keep someone off your land, why shouldn't they just abuse you? If it's important enough, go to war over it.

	02-11-2001 07:01									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I dont see people crossing the borders at all durring the game till I've managed to break a few treaties and tick off some of the AI's at me. After that then they'll start thier crap but I would guess its thier lack of respect for my country thats the problem and my own trouble making coming home to roost.

	02-11-2001 07:06									#14
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by ChrisShaffer Not only do the Chinese refuse to honor my border, but after I walled off the border with forts and units, they decided to have a galley do ferry duty. The damn thing is picking them up in their territory, then dropping them off in mine -- and returning to do it over and over again. All so they can get through my space to fight the French. Smart. I'm getting more respect for the AI than I ever had in Civ2. I like it. After all, if you're too weak to keep someone off your land, why shouldn't they just abuse you? If it's important enough, go to war over it.

This is actually a fairly delicate issue, and one not easily solved. From what I understand, telling the AI to never enter the player's territory without permission can result in timid civs who get hemmed in due to player expansion and as a result never provide much of a challenge. That's one of the reasons the automatic "get out" option was put in, IIRC. It allows you to force the AI to get out, and in my experience, they'll stay out unless they have no other way to get to a place they need to go.

I'm also pretty sure opposing civs will respect your borders more if they are afraid of your military and/or if they respect your culture and you have a good relationship with them.


Dan

	02-11-2001 07:14									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Chris, same problem. That Hammy-rabes guy keeps sending galleys to the north of my island and BUILDS CITIES! AGG! I don't even own my own continent...I think I'll get a fleet together and bonk some Babylonian heads. Babylon's near the coast. :-D And chock full of wonders...

	02-11-2001 07:24									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS This is actually a fairly delicate issue, and one not easily solved. From what I understand, telling the AI to never enter the player's territory without permission can result in timid civs who get hemmed in due to player expansion and as a result never provide much of a challenge. That's one of the reasons the automatic "get out" option was put in, IIRC. It allows you to force the AI to get out, and in my experience, they'll stay out unless they have no other way to get to a place they need to go. I'm also pretty sure opposing civs will respect your borders more if they are afraid of your military and/or if they respect your culture and you have a good relationship with them. Dan

Gee, I dunno Dan. The English kept on going through my entire civilizaiton to build a city on a glacial peninsula at the edge. I culturally assimlated it in only a few turns (and I *SHOULD* have razed it.. oh well, I had a cultural victory so I bought it lots of culture stuff), but what on earth made the AI want to go through all my territory to build a completely worthless city? Doesn't sound too bright to me.

	02-11-2001 07:30									#17
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by CygnusZ Gee, I dunno Dan. The English kept on going through my entire civilizaiton to build a city on a glacial peninsula at the edge. I culturally assimlated it in only a few turns (and I *SHOULD* have razed it.. oh well, I had a cultural victory so I bought it lots of culture stuff), but what on earth made the AI want to go through all my territory to build a completely worthless city? Doesn't sound too bright to me.

When I first started seeing the AI do this to me (colonizing these tiny one tile gulags on the tip of my borders) I thought it was errant behavior, too. What I didn't realize, though, is that they can and will use this technique to push your borders back and surround you. It's a cheap way to gain a toehold into your territory, especially since it only takes 10 culture points to get that first border expansion.


Dan

	02-11-2001 07:35									#18
	Put an end to popups!

Why don't the AI's ever try to negotiate a right of passage agreement instead of just arbitrarily violating your borders?

Laz

	02-11-2001 07:48									#19
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Three points:
1) Access agreements: Yes the AI should atleast TRY to ask you for access but it never does !!
2) trespassing as good AI: I'm having bit of a problem with this. The Indians have (in my game) plenty of ports, so do other powers .. yet their favourite pastime is to romp over me. Why doesnt the AI try to butter me up for a nice juicy right of passage..
3) I think I can buy the idea of lack of repect coupled with an innate expansion drive if it wasnt for the following four aspects:
a) fortresses dont hold them back for trespass.. only when you're at war to ZOCs come into effect I think (havent seen it yet)
b) the AI does it every *bleeping turn* I could swallow this whole idea if there was say a 10 turn ENFORCED no-violation period (at leats then i wouldnt have to click "Get out" every turn!! (a "bad-boy" period) I miss the "cease-fires" from civ II!!)
c) if The AI tried more than one path .. Right now its alway steh same.. 20 elephants in same hex ; teh chinese ..same mess
d) even at the earliest stages of the gme the AI has absolutely NO repect for sea borders at all.

Z

	02-11-2001 07:54									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS When I first started seeing the AI do this to me (colonizing these tiny one tile gulags on the tip of my borders) I thought it was errant behavior, too. What I didn't realize, though, is that they can and will use this technique to push your borders back and surround you. It's a cheap way to gain a toehold into your territory, especially since it only takes 10 culture points to get that first border expansion. Dan

I see. Damn, I destroyed the English civilization as retribution for that stunt. Guess I did the right thing (Can't have enemy civs encasing my civ after all...)

	02-11-2001 07:55									#21
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quote: This is actually a fairly delicate issue, and one not easily solved. From what I understand, telling the AI to never enter the player's territory without permission can result in timid civs who get hemmed in due to player expansion and as a result never provide much of a challenge. That's one of the reasons the automatic "get out" option was put in, IIRC.

Hmm... every time I've used the "get out" diplomatic demand, the offending units aren't automatically expelled to their territory. They stay there until next turn when they may or may not move out, and other units will take their place Why isn't there a "trespass again and we are automatically at war" option? Waging war with a Democracy is near impossible when you're the one that declares it, but defending against trespassers should be considered defense and should not cause as much war weariness. In the game's current state, defending your borders is considered the same as an aggressive action, and your people get all pissy about it.

	02-11-2001 08:21									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS This is actually a fairly delicate issue, and one not easily solved. From what I understand, telling the AI to never enter the player's territory without permission can result in timid civs who get hemmed in due to player expansion and as a result never provide much of a challenge. That's one of the reasons the automatic "get out" option was put in, IIRC. It allows you to force the AI to get out, and in my experience, they'll stay out unless they have no other way to get to a place they need to go. I'm also pretty sure opposing civs will respect your borders more if they are afraid of your military and/or if they respect your culture and you have a good relationship with them. Dan

I agree with the second paragraph. Not that Dan needs ME to agree, but still. It seems to me the AI's expansion drive is very very strong. It will generally avoid your territory, but once it has no more expansion room in it's own, it WILL go through yours.

On the other hand, if they really dislike you, and especially if they feel you aren't much threat, they'll go through anyway, to dare you to declare war. It would be nice if trespassing incurred some kind of (very small, but aggregate) global diplomatic penalty. So if the Chinese keep trespassing, other Civilizations are less likely to trust them.

My real pet peeve with territories is AI civs. They will allow ANY other AI civ to pass through their territory to make war, without a RoP treaty or anything. I don't know how you prevent the AI from being hemmed in as Dan said, but the diplo penalty would be a start.

	02-11-2001 08:36									#23
	Get a bigger avatar today!

First of all, there is an option to let them know you will goto war if they dont get out it's called... "Withdraw your troops or declare WAR!!" If they dont... declare war, or offer right of passage. So what if they dont contact you first... offer them right of passage for a good deal of coins per turn.. they will take it and you get money. Don't let the game play you.. play the frickin game.

Also I would like to mention that the game DOES make a distinction between a defensive war and an offensive one... says it somewhere in the manual or civilpedia. So if you dont want them there, kill their units... they might get the idea. Me... im happy with letting them pay me for passage hehe.

Also, let me get this straight... people are getting mad at the computer for plopping down towns on your continent that you haven't even fully "controlled" yet??? Hmmm sounds just like what the Europeans did to the americas lol.... I'm not sure if it works, but it seems to be working well for me. . . when I see those little farts coming near land that I plan to expand into... send units to occupy the area... it seems like the computer wont build a city if theres an opposing military unit right next to it... at least I haven't seen it happen yet in my game. Second of all if the computer is expanding faster than you are... you are obviously doing something wrong... adjust your strategy... this aint civ 2.