02-11-2001 16:03									#1
	Why does the game favor 1 civ over the others? Full PM-box? Change here!

Am Í the only one wondering why the game favors 1 civilizaition over the others?

Why?

1. America gets to have their special units forever. If you so are in the year 2389 amerika will still rule the air. I dont want the f-15 to be bad or anything but it is just strange that it doesnt become obsolete.
I cant understand this. Doesnt Firaxis want the civilizations to be evenly matched?

Who wants to have a special unit for 30 minutes of gameplay compared to 10 hours of gameplay?
In my games the special unit aint so important just because it gets obsolete so fast. This is not the case with the amerikans.

Im just asking why 15 nations got their special unit for a limited time period but 1 dont. Seems a little bit biased to me.

This should be fixed in a patch so that the amerikan f-15 just last for 40 turns or so as everyone elses special unit (even though a late game turn is much longer than an early game turn)

2. America is also the only civ who gets their golden age exaktly at the time of the space race. (!!!)
This means that if you want an easy win you should use the amerikans since they can complete their space ship in half the time unlike the other civs. Imagine the balance issues this would raise in multiplayer.

Some people say that early golden ages will make things even in the end because they get important early game bonuses.
That aint the case. Since the turns pass so fast in the early game you never get to get started before golden age is over. Perhaps you get to build 2-3 units more than usual but nothing game deciding.

No, the fact is that the later the golden age is, the better.
You can easily wipe out an entire civilization in your golden age if you play as the amerikans (and to a lesser extent, the germans).
Why?
Since 25 turns isnt the same in early as in late game.
In early game the 25 turns may take 20 minutes to complete.
25 turns in the late game equalls perhaps 3 hours of gameplay in the late game.
You can easily start and win war in that time, something that isnt possible in an early golden age.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I would lika a Firaxians response to this. Not the early vs late golden age dilemma but WHY DOES THE AMERICANS GET TO HAVE THEIR SPECIAL UNIT FOREVER?

It just doesnt make any sense to me. Its just so boring since making 1 civ better than the others lowers the replayability.

I also think that it was a mistake to do the american golden age in the space race. The game slogan is "Rewrite the history" not "Redo the history" isnt it?

I would like someone elses wiew of this.
Am I exaggerating it or am I right?

Last edited by DonJoel on 02-11-2001 at 17:43

	02-11-2001 17:49									#2
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The F-15 is not that much better than the other planes, what is it, a 1 point bonus to the attack? Considering that aircraft are not as useful as in Civ2 I don't think this is an unbalancing advantage.

Also, are you not aware that you can have a Golden Age at about any time in history, not just when you get your special unit? Building a wonder will often set it off, so will upgrading your government or winning a lot of territory with non-special units. I am also fairly sure you can have more than one, though I'm not 100% sure on that. I AM 100% certain that I had a pre-1500 Golden Age playing the Americans, and a Golden Age playing the Russians in Ancient times.

I actually think having an early special unit is the bigger advantage - how you do in Ancient times determines how well you will do later on when expansion can be very difficult.

As to America keeping their special unit forever - the game ends in 2050, yes you can continue playing, but if you are playing for score and not just for your own fun America only has access to it's special unit for a relatively small period of time. The Germans get their Panzer too, and I don't think there are any later tanks better than it.

	02-11-2001 18:03									#3
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quote: The F-15 is not that much better than the other planes, what is it, a 1 point bonus to the attack? Considering that aircraft are not as useful as in Civ2 I don't think this is an unbalancing advantage.

Actually as an air superiority fighter the f-15 isnt better as the modern jet, but it has a very high bombard capacity which means you can use it to about everything, killing bombers, bombing tanks, precision bombing etc.

quote: As to America keeping their special unit forever - the game ends in 2050, yes you can continue playing, but if you are playing for score and not just for your own fun America only has access to it's special unit for a relatively small period of time.

Score? Who cares about scores =)

Really, My biggest concern is that when multiplayer gets out the game will be very imbalanced since the multiplayer games tends to drag in well into the +2200.

The bottom line is that making 1 civilization get their bonus forever is bad politics and will not help the game in anyway.

quote: Also, are you not aware that you can have a Golden Age at about any time in history, not just when you get your special unit? Building a wonder will often set it off, so will upgrading your government or winning a lot of territory with non-special units. I am also fairly sure you can have more than one, though I'm not 100% sure on that. I AM 100% certain that I had a pre-1500 Golden Age playing the Americans, and a Golden Age playing the Russians in Ancient times.

Yep,i know that. But having it earlier as americans seems stupid since they can use it to win the space race easily anyway.

	02-11-2001 19:05									#4
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quote: Originally posted by DonJoel Really, My biggest concern is that when multiplayer gets out the game will be very imbalanced since the multiplayer games tends to drag in well into the +2200.

don't most MP games end earlier? at least duels should, Diplo games are supposed to last a bit longer though

	02-11-2001 20:52									#5
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Uhhh, I'm the Persians and I can still build Immortals in the Industrial age.... They're not that effective now, but a lot of civs still have spearmen so I can use the Immortals as cheap decent fodder. That way I can roll my cavalry in and wipe 'em out, or I use the Immortals as resistance squashers.

Golden Ages only happen througha UU win, or building the requisite wonder/wonders that coreespond to your abilities. I would imagine if you're doing well enough to think you can win the Space Race you will have already had your Golden Age from Wonders.

	03-11-2001 04:58									#6
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can't you turn off golden ages from units?

	03-11-2001 15:32									#7
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Wait wait wait wait.

I was under the impression the F-15 was an upgraded JET fighter.

Are you telling me it's an upgraded STEALTH fighter?

That's insane!!! It was created in '67 as the ultimate air superiority fighter! It should ahve upgraded superiority ratings. The only one designed for tactical strikes was the F-15 E and that wasn't produced till 82!

	03-11-2001 17:25									#8
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Relax, you can turn off the Unique Units AND the Unique Bonuses each Civ has. Multiplayer will not be unbalanced. Heck someone could easily go into the editor and make all the Civs get each Unique Unit if they wanted to.

	04-11-2001 00:48									#9
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One thing:
Jet Fighter:
8/4/6 2/1 (Bomardment/R. of Fire) cost 100, chance of interception 50%
F-15:
8/4/6 4/2 (can perform prec. strikes) cost 100, ch. of interception 50%
F-15:

Stealth Fighter:
0/?/6 4/2 (can perform prec. strikes) cost 120, ch. of interception 5%

So F-15 has stelth fighters abilities regard to bombing, but lacks its low chance of interception.
So after you get stealth, Stelth Fighters are still better suidted for that type of Mission then F-15, and cost just a little more.
In other abilities, like Air superiority F-15 is as usefull, as any other Jet Fighter.

So in fact Stelth makes "obsolte" F-15 only advantage, BOMBING.
You will still use them for Air Superriority, but you will use Stelth fighters for Bombing, like any other nation.

So actully F-15 is well balanced for modern unit, but that Golden age problem still exsist, if ever.
Have anybody expiriened that kind of late Golden Age?

	04-11-2001 04:40									#10
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good thing you need no ressources for riflemen

as for the F-15 fighters - will there be a Eurofighter unit in the game?

	04-11-2001 05:54									#11
	American Golden Age in BC time period Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I was playing the Americans and I got my golden age at abotu 300 BC. I believe its because I owned all 4 of the wonders of the world by that point in the game.

	06-11-2001 16:58									#12
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I'd say that getting you special unit early is a major advantage.

Once you get them Roman legions or Persian immortals rolling the late peaking civs is kneedeep in trouble.
(Especially the romans with mili trait is an awesome early conqueror).

I'd pick any ancient era special unit over the F15 that's for sure.

/dev

	07-11-2001 03:12									#13
	Re: American Golden Age in BC time period Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by jadlakha I was playing the Americans and I got my golden age at abotu 300 BC. I believe its because I owned all 4 of the wonders of the world by that point in the game.

same here -- got my golden age early on (not sure why, but probably because I built a wonder or discovered something or something).

For someone to NOT get their golden age by that late in the game -- well, it'd be pretty hard. By that time, the civilization would be so crippled anyway (because of all the things you'd have to NOT get) -- well, it just wouldn't work out -- that Civ would be so weak then, it wouldn't matter, if it even could build space ships...

-- adaMada

	07-11-2001 22:35									#14
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quote: Really, My biggest concern is that when multiplayer gets out the game will be very imbalanced since the multiplayer games tends to drag in well into the +2200.

I thought we were talking about Civ3, not SMAC .

	08-11-2001 11:00									#15
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the panzer lasts forever as well and the game ends in 2050...

end of arguement

	08-11-2001 20:35									#16
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Hmm, who would buy panzer if there is a superior Modern tank for +20% cost.
Hmm, who would buy f-15 for bombard missions, if stelth fighter is better -5% of detection (you would still use f-15 for intercepting tasks).

	11-11-2001 14:30									#17
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quote: Hmm, who would buy f-15 for bombard missions, if stelth fighter is better -5% of detection (you would still use f-15 for intercepting tasks).

Since the computer doesnt seems to use air superiority. and it only seems to work when attacking cities anyway. In my opinion the f-15 is extremely good. i see no reason for it to stay forever.

	06-12-2001 03:11									#18
	Re: Re: American Golden Age in BC time period Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by adaMada same here -- got my golden age early on (not sure why, but probably because I built a wonder or discovered something or something). For someone to NOT get their golden age by that late in the game -- well, it'd be pretty hard. By that time, the civilization would be so crippled anyway (because of all the things you'd have to NOT get) -- well, it just wouldn't work out -- that Civ would be so weak then, it wouldn't matter, if it even could build space ships... -- adaMada

Same thing happened to me...didn't catch the year, but I was playing America, and got my golden age somewhere in the BC years. (Course that didn't help...the Aztecs still wiped me out before I got to the industrial age...but that was my first game)

	06-12-2001 12:20									#19
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This game has a modern age? My legionaires would beg to differ

Anyway dont worry about it, everything that happens after the retirement date is all mere speculation screwing around anyway. And how would you propose Firaxis fix this anyway? Oh! its 2050, game over, to keep playing, the UN requires turn over your F15s can be converted to inferior craft to preserve the balance of power! sorry! and the spaceship thing isnt a big deal if everyone building one has their golden age in the modern age. In fact thanks for that little strategy, I didnt think about it.

The other thing is lots of people argue that the F15 is useless because it comes in too late in the game to mean anything. I mean the first 1/4 of the game is the most important part of the game, any bonus then in your initial REXing and military expansion is always more helpful. Also, try conquering a big modern civ all cultured up with factorys spitting out mech inf by the gallon, then start a new game and try expanding and conquering uncultured fledgling new civs. I can almost gurantee you conquest will be easier in the latter case and have a much larger effect down the line if you can consolidate your cultural and military grasp. So my jag warriors and legions can make a biig difference in the rigid borders of the modern era.

	06-12-2001 21:24									#20
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There are only two ways to trigger a Golden Age - and you only get one single Golden Age per game. Winning a battle against an AI (not the barbarians) with your Unique Unit is one way, the other is building a wonder or wonders that together have the traits of your civilization. For the Americans this means they would more or less have to avoid building wonders if they want to have their Golden Age timed to the Space Race as you claim - and frankly I have a hard time believing that a Golden Age that late will help you win the game if you've "avoided" (read: failed) building wonders until then ;-)
What's more, since fighter planes like the F15 are not regular units that you move to attack other units with, are they even capable of triggering a Golden Age? Air Superiority doesn't work yet so I doubt anyone would have had a chance to see that happen anyway, but I doubt that a bombing mission would count as winning a battle since air strikes can not kill a unit, only hurt them down to one hit point.

Like so many already have stated, it seems to me it is better to have the Golden Age earlier in the game anyway. The wonders triggering this makes it hard to time it in any case, and the wonders are usually what triggers the Golden Age if you are playing a civ with a late-game UU. I believe it may have a much bigger effect on your progress if you achieve a Golden Age while your UU is a unit that makes a difference: You will be able to produce lots more of them and will be able to go rampant attacking, if that is your forte; you can build wonders faster during those years, research faster and make more money - all this much more important earlier than it is later. By the time you are in the modern age, you should be researching techs once every 4 or 5 turns anyway, and if you are not, you are already losing the game I don't believe the F15 is enough for a losing American to turn that around.

	07-12-2001 00:16									#21
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Avoiding Expansionistic wonders is relativly easy since they are:
Collosus,
Lighthouse,
Magellan,
Copreniqus and
SETI.
So it is possbile to delay golden age.

But if you make good early golden age, then you'll start building space projects much sooner then anyone else.

	10-12-2001 09:35									#22
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I think the reason that they let the americans have their special unit at the end and let it last for everis that they probably didn't design the game to be played into the distant future. that is why there are future techs and the game score is ended in 2050. As far as I know, no one except for DonJoel has complained about this, I see nothing wrong with the Americans unit, because other units can have a bigger impact on the game, if a jaguar warrior takes over washington 40 turns into the game, the f-15 did the Americans very little good.

	10-12-2001 21:44									#23
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While I played the Russians I know for a fact that I had more than one golden age.

F-15's in my opinion would be less effective in the multiplayer game because human players would defend against it far better than the computer. I agree that games are typically over by the time the F-15 comes around so its almost a pointless unit IMO.

Does the stealth fighter have intercept ability? It doesn't today but the F-22 has some stealth ability. Of course the unit does not look like a Raptor. I have never built one because the major combat is over by then.

	15-12-2001 19:30									#24
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Seeing this thread makes me laugh,My thought are just the opposites...Expansionist Civ suck big times!!any civ that includes them as good as a civ that only have 1 civ ability!I condemn Expansionist in the strongest term possible
tell me the use whats the use of scout ?when actually u can have commercial,industrious,militaristic!
Firaxis are dumb ,what the hell is expansionist use for?