03-11-2001 12:06									#1
	Has anyone gotten an ARMY LEADER yet? Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Supposevly you get a leader in combate with another civ, I read un manuel but it was vague. if someone has gotten one, tell me what you did. I read there very useful in finishing wonders because they can enforce produciton.

thanks

	03-11-2001 12:09									#2
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I've gotten two, actually. Each when one of my elite archers won a battle. It's cool because you can then form an army (or rush build stuff).

	03-11-2001 12:10									#3
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Yes, Ive gotten armies but they are VERY rare. But they are VERY powerful so its good that they arent too common. It's also game unbalancing. An army of Archers can easily kill tanks n such.

	03-11-2001 12:10									#4
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One of my elite imortals created one when i conquered the last babylonian city. Neat looking little bugger.

	03-11-2001 12:23									#5
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Yes, when I was playing the Germans and obtained Barbarossa, when my elite swordsman won a combat. It was pretty cool too - suddenly this tall, noble figure appeared.

I moved him to my nearest city and added the three units to it. It looked great moving across the landscape, with that leader carrying the banner before them. . .

	03-11-2001 12:38									#6
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quote: Originally posted by TheDarkside Yes, Ive gotten armies but they are VERY rare. But they are VERY powerful so its good that they arent too common. It's also game unbalancing. An army of Archers can easily kill tanks n such.

Not that rare...after you win your first battle with an army, you can buld a Small Wonder called MIlitary Academy, which lets you build armies without a leader in that city.

	03-11-2001 14:41									#7
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Very rare, HAH!

Playing the Romans on Huge Earth World. Difficulty level Regent.

Starting position roughly in the Seattle-Vancouver area.

Only other civ in NA is Greeks. Starting position around Washington.

Split most of NA with cities with Greeks. Then attacked them with Legionairs (that's what they're for aren't they?

All Legions built in cities with barracks (they started as Vetern).

Anyway, conquered all Greek cities (about 10). In each attack I had at least 2 Elite (only took one successful combat to reach, about 1 out of 2 or 3 times). In each case the Greeks would have 2 (once 3) Hoplite Regulars as garrisson. I would begin attack with 5 or 6 Legions adjacent to the Greek city.

Every combat went the same.

1. Elite Legion attacks. Elite Legion dies, reducing 1 Hoplite to near death.

2. Elite Legion attacks. Elite Legion kills Hoplite.

3. Vetern Legion attacks. Hoplite dies.

4. In the case that the Greek had 3 combat units (sometimes a Hoplite sometimes a bowman). Vetern Legion attacks. Last Greek dies.

The way things worked, between the Veterns attacking after the Elites and in minor skirmishes, I always had at least 2 Elites (sometimes 3) going in.

NOT 1 LEADER CREATED!!! At least 30 victories by Elites in combat against AI civ so far!

This game has some very serious flaws in the initial release. The leader situation is the least of my anoyances right now. Don't get me started on corruption...

But seriously, the prospects look bright. The AI is much better, The AI civs trade tech and info amongst each other like mad. They also push in better, less stupid ways, etc,.

The game system as a whole is much better thought out and inter-related. The structure is there.

Lets hope the patch fixes these things. Happy thoughts.

notyoueither

	03-11-2001 15:06									#8
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I think I read somewhere that at base level, a victory with an elite unit gives you a 1/16 chance of a leader appearing. That means that theoretically you should get 1 leader for every 16 combats. If you had 30 combats, about 2 leaders should have appeared. I forgot where I was going with this, but apparently you should have gotten 2 leaders :P

I do know that if you can position a really good defensive unit in a city that your enemy is attacking he will quickly become elite and, chances are, will be pretty good about giving you a leader or two over the years. :P

	03-11-2001 15:12									#9
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I'm glad leaders are 1/16 or 1/60... they should be VERY rare. Especially since it seems like armies are too powerful.

	03-11-2001 15:14									#10
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A couple of things I'm wondering about in regard to armies:

I have not been able to remove a unit added to an army, is this possible at all?

Also, I have not been able to upgrade units in an army, what's up with this?!

	03-11-2001 16:05									#11
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i just got one on the second battle of my elite warrior unit. what a stroke of luck I thought.

But then a few turns later he got killed... alone they're weak like settlers/workers/etc.

	03-11-2001 17:32									#12
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First off, let me confess I haven't played Civ III yet (being English). However, I have been reading the comments here and on other boards and the whole "Leader" thing strikes me as a bit strange.

I thought one of the big advances in Civ III was that it would be possible to stack all units in armies or fleets (or air wings) and that battles would be resolved between armies of combined forces. The idea of having infantry, cavalry (or armour) and artillery together would pay off, as each type of unit had a particular role to play. Perhaps a bit like a (better) CtP system. Certainly better than the hack I had to resort to in my Bonaparte scenario of having a fortress in every square!

It seems from what I have read that you can only form armies (and fleets or air wings?) sometimes, when the game engine sees fit to grant you a Leader.

Then treedom says:

quote: after you win your first battle with an army, you can buld a Small Wonder called Military Academy, which lets you build armies without a leader in that city.

Which is more like I originally understood it. Can you build this Military Academy quite early on? What (apart from winning a battle with an army) do you need? You still need that first, randomly-assigned leader, yes?

BTW, it always seemed to me that the best way to tackle this issue was to ALWAYS allow leaders to be "built" (or bought, or something), but to have them act as a (smallish) NEGATIVE force-multiplier until they gained experience or revealed "natural talent" on a semi-random basis.

E.g. A four-legion army fights with the advantages of an army as described above (each unit sharing the HP damage, etc), but their inexperienced general means that each combat is fought at a 20% (?) disadvantage compared with a single legion fighting alone. This would reflect the difficulties of handling large bodies of troops, and would make most armies less powerful than they seem to be now.

An average general just gives the stack ability, and a good general +20%. Maybe there is a place for real super-generals (historical figures like Napoleon or Alex the Great) with an even larger bonus. Generals do not keep on getting better. After a loss, some may be downgraded or even killed as their army is routed and dispersed. Eventually, all of them "die" of old age, and you have to start again with an inexperienced fellow.

Does anybody else feel that this would be a good system? Is it worth sending this to Firaxis as feedback?

	03-11-2001 20:42									#13
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The tech requirement for a Military Academy is Military tradition, which is at the tail end of the Middle Ages era in the tech tree.

But, you still need to win that first battle with an army, which means that you need to get a leader and use him for an army first. This didn't happen for me in my first game until about 1400AD.

There's also another Small Wonder, called Heroic Epic, which also requires you to have won a battle with an army, but no tech requirement. It's supposed to make the likelihood of getting a hero higher.

	03-11-2001 20:51									#14
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quote: Originally posted by treedom Not that rare...after you win your first battle with an army, you can buld a Small Wonder called MIlitary Academy, which lets you build armies without a leader in that city.

That is cool, so in teh end game armies all around

	03-11-2001 21:10									#15
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I got Napoleon a few dozen turns back but I'm keeping him in reserve in my capital in case I need to rush build a Wonder. My armies are doing a good job of slaughtering the Aztecs and the Babylonians without the need for any actual army units. Maybe once I get modern tanks I'll use him.

	03-11-2001 23:36									#16
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quote: Originally posted by OneFootInTheGrave That is cool, so in teh end game armies all around

Apparently you can only have one army for every 4 cities (can't remember where I read this). I havent' tested this but if it's true, armies aren't going to be as common as you imagine...

KoalaBear33

	03-11-2001 23:56									#17
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quote: It seems from what I have read that you can only form armies (and fleets or air wings?) sometimes, when the game engine sees fit to grant you a Leader.

Armies can only be made of ground forces. No naval or air armies- at least according to the manual and i havent tried otherwise.

	04-11-2001 00:01									#18
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Yep, methinks you're right Koala...I just built that Military Academy and realized an army costs 400 shields. To put that into context, it's the same amount of shields as the Pyramids.

And about the four city per army rule, you're right there too. Says so in the Civilopedia.

	04-11-2001 00:30									#19
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I haven't had any problems getting the first leader.

Though I've had tons of problems otherwise.

Damn cavalry. How exactly are they slaughtering my infantry? attack 6 vs def 10? argh

	04-11-2001 00:30									#20
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. If you had 30 combats
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I forget who said that, but actaully this could make ense, now if you faught 30 combats with JUST 1 unit and he survied them all, yea, he should be a leader

But, It hink my next game I am going to play with romans. That away I can hopfeully suvrive militarily wise.

	04-11-2001 00:38									#21
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Nope Had a rumble with the English and conquered them (I was sharing a continent with them). I had a few elite units battling away but none of them ever got a leader.

	04-11-2001 02:33									#22
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You can only build armies in the city with the Military Academy. And they are the equivalent of Small Wonders. It would difficult to build many of them.