04-11-2001 00:04									#1
	2 biggest prblems Got spare money?

#1) I really hate it when i build a colony and next thing i know some other civ builds a city right over it. Now i just lost my resources and colony when i was there first. I mean i would build a city to protect against this, but i dont care for building cities on tundra covered islands.. Colonies are useless right now. The only way you should loose you colony is if its attacked.. Not because its been stolen......

soultion: They should become part of your territory

#2) I find it really annoying that other countries invade your territory constantly.. You ask them to leave.. they do and say sorry but next turn they are right back inside ur territory.. pretty lame..

#3) also subs should be the most powerful sea units.. In real life who ever has subs rules the seas..

These need to be fixxed quick... esp #1 and #2

	04-11-2001 02:13									#2
	Re: 2 biggest prblems Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by zyklon #1) I really hate it when i build a colony and next thing i know some other civ builds a city right over it. Now i just lost my resources and colony when i was there first. I mean i would build a city to protect against this, but i dont care for building cities on tundra covered islands.. Colonies are useless right now. The only way you should loose you colony is if its attacked.. Not because its been stolen...... soultion: They should become part of your territory #2) I find it really annoying that other countries invade your territory constantly.. You ask them to leave.. they do and say sorry but next turn they are right back inside ur territory.. pretty lame.. #3) also subs should be the most powerful sea units.. In real life who ever has subs rules the seas.. These need to be fixxed quick... esp #1 and #2

Hmm, I thought that I answered these somewhere else, but I'll do it again anyway, although I have a feeling that you may be trolling because some of these points are so obviously wrong and because I've seen you trolling in a couple of other threads:

#1) That's your own stupid fault for not defending your colonies properly. If you stick a military unit on top of it then they won't be able to build a city there. Besides, a settler unit has twice the people of a worker unit, hence you can assume that they beat the workers up.

#2) Get a big military, scare them away. Patrol your borders.

#3) No. Having subs has never meant that you rule the seas. Having battleships did up until WWII, and since then its been about aircraft carries, never subs. Subs aren't particularly powerful either. Once they are detected they are sitting ducks, they use surprise to get their first attack in, and if that doesn't work then they're not in a good position. Submarines will usually get beaten in combat by destroyers, cruisers or battleships, unless they get in a lucky shot. Submarines' main use is for raiding poorly protected weak ships, such as supply ships and troop transports, in Civ III this would translate to hitting aircraft carriers and transports. They are also used for their tactical ability to stay undetected, which makes them good for camping with some nukes next to another country's coastline. In short, submarines are a tactical tool, not the brute force and ignorance brigade. If you are losing them often then its your own fault for attacking heavily armed and armoured warships and convoys.

	04-11-2001 02:51									#3
	Re: Re: 2 biggest prblems Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Deathray Hmm, I thought that I answered these somewhere else, but I'll do it again anyway, although I have a feeling that you may be trolling because some of these points are so obviously wrong and because I've seen you trolling in a couple of other threads: #1) That's your own stupid fault for not defending your colonies properly. If you stick a military unit on top of it then they won't be able to build a city there. Besides, a settler unit has twice the people of a worker unit, hence you can assume that they beat the workers up. #2) Get a big military, scare them away. Patrol your borders.

1) Putting a military unit on a colony won't prevent another civ from building a city right next to it and taking the resources. If you lay claim to resources through a colony or culture, a foreign settler should not be able to plop down and take it.

2) That's not the point. In my game, the Egyptians kept trying to move 30 knights into my territory and explore every inch, even though I did not have a right of passage agreement with them. Now what's the point of borders if they don't keep other civs from going into your territory? I was requesting that they leave every turn, though eventually I built a wall of knights to line my borders (much harder than in civ 2 to keep other civs out of your territory because of the lack of zones of control). This should not be necessary. If I tell the Egyptians to get the hell out of my borders and they ignore my request, that should be an act of war! I really thought that after 10 years of civ they'd actually get this right.

	04-11-2001 03:03									#4
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Other civs will respect your borders MUCH more if you have a respected culture. If your culture sucks, they probably will trample through.

	04-11-2001 11:09									#5
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thanx akron for the post... i see im not the only that finds the 2 problems i posted above annoying...

and to deathray....

quote: Hmm, I thought that I answered these somewhere else, but I'll do it again anyway, although I have a feeling that you may be trolling because some of these points are so obviously wrong and because I've seen you trolling in a couple of other threads:

this is only my 2nd or 3rd post on these forums... The only other posts I have made were thanking sn00py on the awsome graphic mods he has made for civ3.. im not trolling or whineing.. so stop flamming me..

you obviously havent played the game much. cause if you had im sure you would find it annoying to keep having to ask the other country to remove their troops 20 or 30 times in a row and they just say we are sorry... but next turn they do it again and again...

any whats the point of having colonys if another civ can build a city right next to it and you loose the colony and all the resources? I thing if you build a colony that should square should be a part of your terrirtory.

quote: Imran Siddiqui: Other civs will respect your borders MUCH more if you have a respected culture. If your culture sucks, they probably will trample through.

i was playing cheiften and i had highest culture by far... i was wrecking everyone.. controled prob 3/4 of world.. you think that would make them try and get on my nice side

	04-11-2001 11:23									#6
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Actually I've been finding the AI quite well behaved with respect to my borders. Other than the occasional ship cruising by (which doesn't bother me) there have only been two 'incidents' with border incursions, and both times was because the AI was hell bent on starting a war and was trying to get a head start on deploying its troops before actually declaring war (pretty sharp on its part, I gotta say...I do the same thing). One of those times I asked it to withdraw, and it declared war...the other time it just declared war the next turn (no audience or anything!).

Of course, my culture is higher than any of my neighbours, and I have fortified garisons at strategic spots along the border...so maybe those are vital to a well behaved AI, as someone mentioned.

Of course, I'm speaking from the experience of only about 3/4 of a game played...but c'mon...compare that to CtP2.

	04-11-2001 11:43									#7
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yea ill have to try building some fortresses see if that maybe makes a difference.. its happened to me in 2 of my 3 games so far.. not a big deal just gets annoying telling them to leave every turn.

	04-11-2001 11:50									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Other civs will respect your borders MUCH more if you have a respected culture. If your culture sucks, they probably will trample through.

Wrong. Man I dominate the culture in my 16 player game I'm doing. I have more than half of the whole culture in the world.

I have 5 units a turn violating my borders, I tell them ot leave, they come back. It's flamorific. And it's stupid. Which, is why I have destroyed all those civs who were stupid enough to do that.

	04-11-2001 12:28									#9
	Hmm Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Stromprophet Wrong. Man I dominate the culture in my 16 player game I'm doing. I have more than half of the whole culture in the world. I have 5 units a turn violating my borders, I tell them ot leave, they come back. It's flamorific. And it's stupid. Which, is why I have destroyed all those civs who were stupid enough to do that.

Quite frankly, I'm pretty sure that's the point. Rival Civilizations can get along with each other to a certain degree, but eventually one or the other will knock each other out - it's called the competitive exclusion principle in biology. If they're not going to respect your borders, you had better teach them a lesson and get on with it - there's no use complaining about it on the forum because that's how it SHOULD work!

About colonies, I have to agree that the square you build it in SHOULD become part of your territory. That is an oversight on the part of the developing team. Enemies should not be able to violate the colony's sovereignty in the same way they can't violate your borders (see above). It might also be an alternative way to expand culture and maybe connect the borders of cities before they get the chance to expand.

My 2 sense...

	04-11-2001 12:32									#10
	Re: Hmm Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by LtChambers Quite frankly, I'm pretty sure that's the point. Rival Civilizations can get along with each other to a certain degree, but eventually one or the other will knock each other out - it's called the competitive exclusion principle in biology. If they're not going to respect your borders, you had better teach them a lesson and get on with it - there's no use complaining about it on the forum because that's how it SHOULD work! About colonies, I have to agree that the square you build it in SHOULD become part of your territory. That is an oversight on the part of the developing team. Enemies should not be able to violate the colony's sovereignty in the same way they can't violate your borders (see above). It might also be an alternative way to expand culture and maybe connect the borders of cities before they get the chance to expand. My 2 sense...

Maybe we're looking at this wrong.

I think the point of resources is becoming painfully apparent. Aquiring technology which reveals those sources is gonna be huge, and protecting those resources, will make the game.

So we have to protect them, no matter what. Now, you mightnot be able to protect them from city builders, but you might want to be willing to sacrfice a settler to travel a ways to claim it.

	04-11-2001 16:17									#11
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quote: I have 5 units a turn violating my borders, I tell them ot leave, they come back. It's flamorific. And it's stupid. Which, is why I have destroyed all those civs who were stupid enough to do that.

I'm gonna take a wild stab and say that the reason they keep invading your borders is because if they don't, they know you'll still kill them anyway. Give 'em credit for *attempting* to manipulate you.

	05-11-2001 00:31									#12
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Maybe we're looking at this wrong. I think the point of resources is becoming painfully apparent. Aquiring technology which reveals those sources is gonna be huge, and protecting those resources, will make the game. So we have to protect them, no matter what. Now, you mightnot be able to protect them from city builders, but you might want to be willing to sacrfice a settler to travel a ways to claim it.

Ok so if the only way to protect your resources is to build a city, that kinda eliminates the whole purpose and need to build colonys... They should of just left em out all together.. not worht loosing a worker for if your gonna get all the resources robbed anyhow...

quote: About colonies, I have to agree that the square you build it in SHOULD become part of your territory. That is an oversight on the part of the developing team. Enemies should not be able to violate the colony's sovereignty in the same way they can't violate your borders (see above). It might also be an alternative way to expand culture and maybe connect the borders of cities before they get the chance to expand.

i totally agree with you...

	05-11-2001 01:56									#13
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Yes Colonies need to have a zone of control, even if it is one square. You don't want to build cities in less than ideal places because of the corruption limit.

	05-11-2001 03:07									#14
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I'm currently in a game where I have six colonies, a mix of saltpeter and iron, all well garrisoned with fortresses built on top of them. So far, the only things that are bothering them are barbarians. They're all deep in a mountainous jungle, which makes it difficult to expand into. Also, I'm trying to keep the area undeveloped so I can have a reasonable chance at getting rubber. If I dropped a city in that area to protect those colonies, it'd die of disease before I could even get it working properly. The best bet for me right now is to maintain those colonies until someone does come along to claim the area. Then I invade.

That's my thought on how colonies should be used...

I don't know how well they work across water, yet...

	05-11-2001 03:20									#15
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As it stands, colonies are virtually useless. The AI will build cities in the most rotten place, just to access a resource. I have yet to see it make a SINGLE colony. This is intolerable.

I was really looking forward to constructing colonies. I tyhought it would be delightful to bujild a single city with a harbor somewhere, and then use colonies to bring resources to the city, and then to my empire.

Unfortunately with the AI's expansion strategies, this is impossible. Colonies should have at least a one sqare boundary.

	05-11-2001 03:46									#16
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good point kc, i ahve never seen the ai build a colony either... they just build cities anywhere and everywhere.. im sure if water had resources they would build a city on the water too....

firaxis care to comment on the colonies issue? What is the point of colonies? There is no advantage.. we might as well build cities so our resources dont get robbed.

	05-11-2001 04:09									#17
	an observation Increase the size of your Attachments

One things for sure, the way it works now sure give you ample opportunity to go to war simply to protect and procure resources.

In one game, Im on this huge continent and when saltpeter is finnaly revealed... ONE, thats right, one saltpeter right inbetween myself and the Germans. I must have fought 5 or 6 wars with them over this damn thing. (im not one to just wipe out other civs, though I did have to eventually)

Agreed that colonies should be part of your teritory, but that dosent stop the problem your describing...

I had some insence (that desert lamp) and built a colony on it, after fightin the indians for control of the luxury my glowing culture embraced that as part of my teritory, but not the square next to it. What do the Indians do, they build a city right next to the luxury again, and bam, my borders are now shrunk by one square in each direction.

I must have been mistaken because I though I remember reading in the manual that when borders meet they dont expand aginst one another.

LB

	05-11-2001 04:14									#18
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quote: I have yet to see it make a SINGLE colony.

I saw one in my game yesterday

	05-11-2001 04:45									#19
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Can you people not send units to patrol near a colony? if you detect a Settler moving towards you colony, intercept it.. and then block or destroy the settler before it settles.

-LMP

	05-11-2001 05:06									#20
	We shouldnt have too Increase Your PM Length

I agree that you should patrol colonies with your units in order to defend them from those who would destroy them, but they should still be part of your territory and not subject to loss with the construction of a nearby city.

If a civ plops down a city and destroys your colony it should be an act of war. Would the english have just laid back and allowed the French to invade, say Boston (when it was a colony) without retaliation? No, and the French knew it, which is why its an act of war.

As to blocking a settler or just destroying it, blocking is difficult, and destroying it is an act of war, and some of us dont want to declare war every 10 turns when the annoyance in question sends yet another settler to steal your resources.

LB

	05-11-2001 06:42									#21
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

couldnt have said it better LB..

LB i have also had the same problem you mentioned before.. with other civs builing a city right at ur borders edge causing your border to decrease and colonies that were inside to become wothless.

civs shouldnt be bulding cities just anywhere.

	05-11-2001 07:13									#22
	Inflate your Upload Space

I've had the problem with them walking through my borders as well. For the most part, it's obvious why they want too (ex: British ran out of room to the south and wanted to expand on the far side of me) Also, I've noticed they tend to send workers/ settlers and small defense force more often than other units. The only time I have seen large scale military forces was when my next door civs decided I looked like an easy target and were about to start a war.

I don't mind any of this. What bothers me is the people that I demand they remove, they do and the next turn they move RIGHT BACK WHERE THEY WERE! Very frustraing, but so far I have just demanded they remove tehm every year for a long time and eventually they stopped.

	05-11-2001 07:32									#23
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

you know ive found that civs will go through your civ and disregard your borders especially if they are at war with someone that puts you in the middle. i controlled the center of a archipelago and the only way to stop both the germans and the aztecs from going through my territory is to put units there to stop them . its ridiculous too from the point of

(big point, i wish this was im so i could jack the size)



SLOWING DOWN THE GAME!!!!!!!

why in gods name can do i have to watch every single (explicative) move by allied troops in my territory. i dont care, and seriously, i should not have to be able to take a shower, do laundry and attend a class between turns. there needs to be an option in the inevitable series of patches to address this. i wouldnt mind allied troops in my territory so much if i didnt have to watch 50 troops move from space to space. and about that. how the (explicative) does the ai afford the mass numbers of troops. if i have a 5th of the troop numbers they have im lucky. granted they are mostly obsolete, but how does the ai afford to keep up tech wise and still put endless troops miles from their borders and fund all of it? am I naive, a terrible player or just plain stupid. i apologize if all of this has been said before, but theres a lot of posts out there and i havent found this yet.

	05-11-2001 07:50									#24
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Colonies were a cool concept poorly implemented. I hope they work on that in a patch, but I fear that the AI won't be able to handle it.

As for the slowdown issue, it is a killer. I hope they work on that in a patch or I won't be able to play past the ancient age. I simply can't stand the wait.