04-11-2001 05:20									#1
	Expansion vs Corruption. How many cities max for your empire? 20? Full PM-box? Change here!

Seems the more cities you have the corruption becomes untenable. For standard map is there nay point in settling overseas? Or expanding your empire beyond 10-15 cities?

	04-11-2001 05:29									#2
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editor... editor...

	04-11-2001 05:39									#3
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nah, I don't like editors..seems like its cheating. Would rather try to solve the game instead fo giving myself advantages thru editor.

Last edited by Leonid on 04-11-2001 at 05:54

	04-11-2001 06:51									#4
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Like everyone else, I used to expand like crazy in Civ2. But I'm finding that it is unmanageable in Civ3 due to corruption. Moreover, it is unnecessary. I'm early in my second game now after winning as the Greeks (this time I'm the Iroquois). Once again I am pursuing the strategy of building a core of strong cities, all centered around my capital. I have 6 cities, all in good locations (I used my scout to find the spots way ahead of time), and I'm not planning on expanding any further. I have very little corruption, despite the fact that I'm still running Despotism.

So I know everyone is concerned with finding out how many cities they can build before the corruption becomes too much. But I have to wonder if you're asking the right question.

	04-11-2001 06:57									#5
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Well, hmm, I've had an Empire of about 30 cities, it certainly didn't hurt me at all. Though some of those cities did kind of suck

It really is a personal choice, but I think having cities will always give you more than it will take away.

Is there a disadvantage to having a corrupt city? Do they ever start taking those points of commerce away? Oh well, I'm trying for a domination victory so maybe it's just my evil side speaking.

	04-11-2001 06:58									#6
	number of cities. Get a bigger avatar today!

I just finished my first game, it lasted 2 days, I lost to another civ in a diplomatic victory in 1968, i had managed to keep the peace with all my neighbors, i was playing as american's on a huge map with 8 civs total. and I had founded around 47 cities before game end. curruption was bad in the outer cities but not so bad towards the center of my empire, i just kept building courthouses and running a democratic gov.

Delbert

	04-11-2001 23:16									#7
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Regent on a huge map, Babylonians vs. four other civs (I wanted a relaxed game for my first time off Chieftain), and using monarchy until I get something better, I've got 45 cities. Game's not over yet, but I'm doing pretty good, corruption isn't debilitating, it just keeps your from becoming too powerful.

	05-11-2001 01:57									#8
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Played a little bit more, and corruption is rediculous. There must be some bug in the game. . .

Under democracy, I've got 45 cities on a huge map, and several of the later ones, even when they have courthouses, are only giving me one commerce and one production. Has anybody else had this problem?

I'm almost tempted to just sell the improvements, and tear up the terrain improvements, and give them to one of my opponents.

	05-11-2001 03:41									#9
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Agree completely. I found that building beyond a certain distance from a palace is worthless. The result is that we have an (rtifical) ceiling beyond which growth is impossible. Conflict therefore becomes more limited as I don't need any more space and so don't need to compete for it.

	05-11-2001 03:47									#10
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There IS this little thing called Forbidden City. . .

	05-11-2001 06:18									#11
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Problem is with forbidden city is that corruption is too high to build it in a reasonable time at a location far enough away from your capital to effectively double the size of your empire. for instance, it took about 50 game turns with mining to build forbidden city across a sea from my civ (english warlord 8 civs). about half of the city was lost to corruption, and while it did help the overseas expansion, by then the other civ's in the game we way ahead of me in total number of cities. im beginning to think that expansion sux unless you are trying to aquire resources.

	05-11-2001 06:25									#12
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quote: Originally posted by encyclodoc Problem is with forbidden city is that corruption is too high to build it in a reasonable time at a location far enough away from your capital to effectively double the size of your empire. for instance, it took about 50 game turns with mining to build forbidden city across a sea from my civ (english warlord 8 civs). about half of the city was lost to corruption, and while it did help the overseas expansion, by then the other civ's in the game we way ahead of me in total number of cities. im beginning to think that expansion sux unless you are trying to aquire resources.

You should use a Great Leader to rush the Forbidden Palace. That's really the only way to build it in a city which is highly corrupt.

	05-11-2001 09:20									#13
	Inflate your Upload Space

about that, ive attacked and defended with elite units about 20 ish times now, some units multiple times. is there something specific you need to do for them to become leaders?

(beat another civ, not barbarian, number of times, better unit, more likely attacking)

	05-11-2001 10:12									#14
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About leaders : people say there is a 1 / 16 chance that an elite becomes a leader and it only works against other civs (so not against barbarians).

That said, I'm played this game for about 40 hours, about half of them in combat games and still haven't got one

Did anyone get a leader from a normal unit (not a civ-specific) ? And what where the options of the game : with or without civ specific abilities ?

	05-11-2001 11:38									#15
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I've been on standard map, conquesting without burning cities or anything and the Corruption is absolutly crippling. In my worst City, a size 18 (rushed the hospital) I get 1 shield of production per turn and about 28 corrupted Sheilds, and about 40 corrupted coins.
This is an empire of about 70-80 cities, In Communism...which i thought was supposed to make corruption equal everywhere...but doesn't....?

Oh, And on Great leaders, i've gotten 6 in this single game, I can't be sure but Looks like you're more likely to get one for winning the square (instead of killing 1 in a stack of 3) and seems you're more likely to be rewarded for a fight vs. a tougher unit. This is just speculation from my experience thus far though. I've only have one arise from defending a city

	05-11-2001 12:47									#16
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I've played the better part of a game and only got 1 leader. It was for defending a city with a lone elite pikeman against like 40 attacking units. My fault, but it was before I realized the AI wlould strike at the week spots in your civilization (kinda frustrating, but I like that a lot.)

I'm the Russians and I got Ivan the Terrible. One question though... Is every leader the same for that civ? For example, if I get another leader, will it be Ivan again? Or do they have a list of names for each Civ?

Last question (because I'm not big into the editor) if you create your own civ, can you provide names for the leaders? Ex: "you created a leader" "Roulette the Chump" Or some such?

	07-11-2001 08:59									#17
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The leaders are civ specific and there are a number of them. Also if you play a militaristic civ or get the heroic epic your chance of getting a leader increase.

later

	07-11-2001 17:13									#18
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And yes if you create a Civ there is a section to enter Leader names. I seem to recall most civs have 4 to 8 names now, no real need for more.

	07-11-2001 17:22									#19
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quote: Originally posted by encyclodoc Problem is with forbidden city is that corruption is too high to build it in a reasonable time at a location far enough away from your capital to effectively double the size of your empire. for instance, it took about 50 game turns with mining to build forbidden city across a sea from my civ (english warlord 8 civs). about half of the city was lost to corruption, and while it did help the overseas expansion, by then the other civ's in the game we way ahead of me in total number of cities. im beginning to think that expansion sux unless you are trying to aquire resources.

Well, here's a neat little trick then: Build the Forbidden Palace in your capital! No corruption/waste giving you any delays in building it, you'll have it ready really reasonably quickly. What good does that do, you ask? Well - when it's built - go build a Palace where you wanted to build the Forbidden Palace instead. The palace is an ordinary building, so you can rush buy/force build it!

	07-11-2001 20:15									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Peoux The palace is an ordinary building, so you can rush buy/force build it!

Sorry, you can't rush build the palace; and it's even more expensive than the Forbidden Palace, IIRC.

	07-11-2001 20:58									#21
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The benefit of expansion in spite of the corruption problem is that you are "taking away" city/city locations from competing empires. Granted, a city distant from your "home" empire wont garner alot of tax revenue and such, but you will deprive someone else of that city. So you arent likely adding alot of tax revenue to your empire.

But consider that this far-away city addition is likely close to someone else's capital and thusly would be more efficient under his control, you are doing more damage to him than you are directly benefitting yourself...and thereby in a roundabout way improving your relative standing vs whomever you've robbed this city/city-location from.

And if you're doing well enough at home, a little bit of cash to build a few cultural enhancements at this location will help ensure that it not be gobbled up in a cultural battle.

Wisdom

	08-11-2001 02:25									#22
	Corruption and Cost/Benefit Increase the size of your Attachments

The key to corruption is to look carefull at each city on a cost benefit basis. I have an empire of about 30 cites, 25 of them are kick butt producers within a central core that contains my palace and the forbidden city. Outside my core continent (South American and Mexico), I have Australia and the Vietnam penisula. There cities aren't doing great, BUT, the resources they provide make the people back home very happy and I'm in WLTKD all the time.

The moral of this story, don't expand without thinking. Plan your cities and know to stop if planting that next city will not do one of the following:

a) Make money
b) Block a chokepoint
c) Give you access to a resource

Personally I think under depotism, before you can build a FC, the max is somewhere between 8 and 15, depending on the lay of the land. As I move to democracy I can increase this to 30, BUT always watch your cost/benefit.