04-11-2001 17:56									#1
	The English are too insignificant to be a civ Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

The english shouldn't be a Civ because they have never been a world power and are anyway just the germans, the romans, the celts and the vikings mixed up

The only time when the english have been any kind of world power is between the defeat of the Armada(1580s) and the act of union in 1707 and even then they were overshadowed by the french, the holy romans and the spanish.

The British do deserve a place in terms of importance, but they still have the problem that they are merely an amalgam of lots of civs

Finally as the english are going to be in they should be scientific and commercial as the british (who appear to be counted as the english) have probably invented more stuff than any other country. Yes we got a huge empire, but that was merely a result of superior science, an excellent navy, and avoiding European wars not because of any expansionist leanings

	04-11-2001 18:36									#2
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Well, does a civ have to be a world power to be accepted as a civ in the game? what about the Aztecs? Germans?

That is just a troll. The English have been a significant European power from the Middle Ages on, until nowadays.

	04-11-2001 18:52									#3
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No they haven't, the British have. The english have never been a significant european power, the french, germans, spanish, austrians and turks were all more powerful in the entire life of the English civ (about 500ad to 1707) and in that time they were ruled by Germans(Saxons) then Vikings(Canute and friends) then German Vikings (Harold and co) then French Vikings (William) then Welsh (Tudor) then Scots (Stuarts). After 1707 when Britain comes in we were ruled by Germans. And as for now the Brits are merely lackeys of the US and just do exactly what they want with nothing in return. The Aztecs were a lot more significant, at one time they were the undisputed masters of Central America. And as for the Germans, in WW2 they took on the French and the Brits and won easily.

	04-11-2001 18:59									#4
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you were ruled by Germans? what a nonsense! you had a King of German heritage, that didn't make England a provicne of Germany, which basically didn't even exist in that time!

Did the King act to the favor of Germany or did he try to increase the power of his empire, populated by English people? think about it. not the heritage of the emperor counts, it's the heritage of the population and the national spirit of the political unit that is called a country.

	04-11-2001 19:00									#5
	Re: The English are too insignificant to be a civ Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Wulfram ...defeat of the Armada(1580s)

1588

	04-11-2001 19:04									#6
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Not ruled by germany, ruled by germans. George I couldn't even speak english.

Thanks for the date of the Armada BTW

Edit: Now we're ruled by the scots and brussels. PM and Chancellor of the Exchequer are Scottish, Scotland gets more seats per person in parliament, a higher proportion of public money and it's own parliament.

And you still haven't responded to the amalgam part of this, or reckognised the difference between Britain and England

	04-11-2001 19:08									#7
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but it doesn't matter where the ruler is from!

Peru is ruled by a Japanese... does that make Peru (or was it Equador? bah!) a Japanese colony?

yeah, I know, the bloke has the relevant naitonality, but he is from Japan though

	04-11-2001 19:11									#8
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Oh yeah I forgot about the dutch in the middle of the scots

You wouldn't have any problem if I came and ruled your country then?

	04-11-2001 19:18									#9
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well, apart from the fact you need German citizenship to become chancellor nowadays, Germany would still be Germany.

Did you know Catherine the Great of Russia was a German woman?

I am sure you know that the aristocrats of Europe were all relatives to each other... the Russian Czar Nicolaus II was the cousin of the German emperor Wilhelm II... weeks before WWI broke out, they wrote letters to each other... in the time of industrialization and imperialism, nationalism was a determining tendency in Europe, yet the leader's of the powers often were of totally mixed origins.... I tell you, national heritage of a leader means sh!t

	04-11-2001 19:22									#10
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That's debatable, but secondary to my main point.

I'm not a troll, just some bored person passing the time until Civ3 comes out in Britain BTW

	04-11-2001 19:26									#11
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I'd be careful with confessions like that...

	04-11-2001 21:30									#12
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Ec quit talking to yourself.

	04-11-2001 21:31									#13
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he's right though. they should be called the british. and i think i'll change their name in the editor

it's an insult to scotsman to have wallace as a leader for the english, i would think

	04-11-2001 21:42									#14
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quote: Originally posted by d_dudy it's an insult to scotsman to have wallace as a leader for the english, i would think

You're not serious. How could they commit such a heinous crime.

Do Firaxis not know anything about British/English/Scottish/Welsh history? Do they not even understand the fundamental and important difference between British and English?

I know lets make Pierre Trudeau a leader of the Americans.

	04-11-2001 22:06									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Big Crunch Ec quit talking to yourself.

In case you haven't read the thread, I've been discussing an elementary issue with another poster, you pom. Now stop being a pain in the arse for other people.

As for the leaders, I have only seen very few civilizations where the leaders were actually a good choice..

	04-11-2001 22:15									#16
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Wulfram isn't a DL of yours then?

If s/he is an independent poster then I doubt that they are English, or even in England. The whole posting mannerism is un-English.

	04-11-2001 22:47									#17
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I am not Ecthelion and I am English. How is my posting mannerism un-english?

	04-11-2001 22:55									#18
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http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=32249