04-11-2001 18:04									#1
	Observations on AI corruption and production Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Ok, so after reading all the threads on corruption, and whether the AI suffers from it, and whether they're getting unfair production or settler bonuses, I did some (ok, lots) of experimenting.

Myth: The AI doesn't suffer corruption.

Fact: They not only suffer it, the fact that they are slow on improvement building means they tend not to have courthouses, and they suffer more than you.

In many many save and reloads over a period of about 10 turns, (the reloads because I was short on gold to investigate AI cities) I've found that they lose the same production/commerce to corruption you do. You can see this in investigating a city, for example in one Persian city, they were losing 6/11 production to corruption. Consecutive investigates over several turns show that they clearly were NOT getting any more than the 5 shields towards their projects that they should, so it's not just there to make you happy. It affects them.

Myth: The AI gets unfair production bonuses.

Fact: Nope. The only bonuses they get are the increased/decreased 'costs' for difficulty level. On Warlord, they get a 20% (2 row) penalty, meaning for example, a 30 shield horseman costs them 36, and a 60 shield temple costs 72. Regent is straight up. Monarch they get 10% off. (I think, I didn't have an advanced game on Monarch, as I prefer Regent, so it was a quick check)

They only get the number of shields you would expect per turn, and the few times I saw a surprising project finish, the AI treasury dropped appropriately. They rush buy. Dunno if they force labour under Despotism, but I can't see why not.

Myth: The AI doesn't lose population points for settlers and workers.

Fact: Wrong again. I saw two cases where the AI had completed production on a settler in a size 2 city, but the settler was delayed until size 3, then the city shrunk appropriately. Never saw a delayed worker, but they did shrink the pop.

So far, it seems like the AI doesn't cheat. The one thing I'd love to find a way to confirm, is if they have to PAY for all those units. In one of the games I checked, (Early middle ages), the persians had 2 cities/8 towns under Monarchy. This allows for (2x4)+(8x2) or 24 units supported. I know they had 16 units just as garrisons, and I could see at least 6 workers. I KNOW they had more, plus military units, and most of those cities were churning out horsemen or immortals. The AI only had a tax rate of 30 or 40%, with the rest to science (you can tell by seeing how the commerce divvies up in the city screen), so I'm unsure if they should have the money they do. Without a global sort of spy, I can't tell.

	04-11-2001 18:11									#2
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Good news!

	04-11-2001 21:26									#3
	The comp does cheat Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I started one game playing as the Americans. I was on the east coast of the North American Continent. Anyways, I made a city and sent out my worker. On the 2nd turn, I was met by the Zulus. I was completely baffled to have been discovered so soon. Even before I had built any warriors as defense. I went out looking for the Zulus, with my first warrrior. When I found them, they had 2 cities, and their capitol was on the west coast bordering an ocean square. So, somehow, they had sent a warrior all the way over the North American continent in one turn. Or, they had already started before I showed up. FYI, This game was on the second to easiest setting. I don't remember what it is called.

	04-11-2001 21:45									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Hah. I really was 90% certain the computer didn't cheat (ot at least until King level, er Monarch, why did they change the 2 difficulty names?).

People complain because their minds aren't *like computers*!! The computers can be precise and micromanage exact growth, money, and other factors to calculate the most efficient way to produce what they need. A human could do this if he wanted to bust out a calculator for each turn and each move.

So let the computer have this advantage! It needs it.

	04-11-2001 21:53									#5
	Re: The comp does cheat Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by miike I started one game playing as the Americans. I was on the east coast of the North American Continent. Anyways, I made a city and sent out my worker. On the 2nd turn, I was met by the Zulus. I was completely baffled to have been discovered so soon. Even before I had built any warriors as defense. I went out looking for the Zulus, with my first warrrior. When I found them, they had 2 cities, and their capitol was on the west coast bordering an ocean square. So, somehow, they had sent a warrior all the way over the North American continent in one turn. Or, they had already started before I showed up. FYI, This game was on the second to easiest setting. I don't remember what it is called.

The Zulu's scout moves 2. Your warrior only moves 1. The scout is free for expansionist civs. You should learn about the civ specific abilities.

	04-11-2001 21:55									#6
	Re: Re: The comp does cheat Increase Your PM Length

WTF. I tried to edit my posts. I'm really sorry.

	04-11-2001 21:55									#7
	Re: Re: The comp does cheat Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I pressed reply with quote instead of edit. We should be allowed to delete our own posts. If an admin sees this, feel free to delete.

	04-11-2001 22:01									#8
	Suffering from ads?

We'll only know the real answer to this question after extensive playtesting.

But in at least a few situations, the computer does cheat. This seems to be confirmed: the AI will almost always know exactly where your weakest city/defense is, even though it doesn't have knowledge of your terrain/territory.

This isn't necessarily bad, it tends to add challenge. But it is an example of the computer having "knowledge" about things it shouldn't have had otherwise.

	04-11-2001 22:03									#9
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Leonidas But in at least a few situations, the computer does cheat. This seems to be confirmed: the AI will almost always know exactly where your weakest city/defense is, even though it doesn't have knowledge of your terrain/territory.

I'm getting sick of these accusations based on what are either false conclusions or coincidences. I have not seen this happen. I had 3 cities in the same area and 2 had only 1 spearmen each and 1 had about 2 spearmen, a longbow, and a few samurai ready to move in it. It attacked the one with a lot of troops. Your experience is based on wild speculation and not fact.

And I never thought I would be the Japanese, but after finding out how strong religious civs are, and how fun the Immortals were with Persians in my first game, I looked for an interesting early-mid game UU and the Samurai were it. War Elephants sound like another good one and I may try Indians my next game.

	04-11-2001 22:50									#10
	Re: Observations on AI corruption and production Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Grunthex So far, it seems like the AI doesn't cheat. The one thing I'd love to find a way to confirm, is if they have to PAY for all those units. In one of the games I checked, (Early middle ages), the persians had 2 cities/8 towns under Monarchy. This allows for (2x4)+(8x2) or 24 units supported. I know they had 16 units just as garrisons, and I could see at least 6 workers. I KNOW they had more, plus military units, and most of those cities were churning out horsemen or immortals. The AI only had a tax rate of 30 or 40%, with the rest to science (you can tell by seeing how the commerce divvies up in the city screen), so I'm unsure if they should have the money they do. Without a global sort of spy, I can't tell.

The AI does have to pay for its troops and improvements just like humans...

	04-11-2001 22:53									#11
	Re: Re: Observations on AI corruption and production Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Soren Johnson Firaxis The AI does have to pay for its troops and improvements just like humans...

Soren lays the hammer down. Unfortunately, people will continue to complain about computer cheating because they just can't believe they are getting their asses kicked.

	04-11-2001 23:35									#12
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Just to clairfy once more... if you play on Prince or lower, the AI receives no gameplay bonuses whatsoever. No growth bonus, no production bonus, no science bonus, no combat bonus, no support bonus, no goodie hut bonus, no bonus against barbarians, no wonder-building bons, no corruption bonus, no waste bonus. If the AI is expanding faster than you (at Prince or lower), it is because they are building Settlers more often than you.

Last edited by Soren Johnson Firaxis on 04-11-2001 at 23:43

	04-11-2001 23:43									#13
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Soren Johnson Firaxis Just to clairfy once more... if you play on Prince or lower, the AI receives no gameplay bonuses whatsoever. No growth bonus, no production bonus, no science bonus, no combat bonus, no support bonus, no goodie hut bonus, no bonus against barbarians, no wonder-building bons, no corruption bonus, no waste bonus. If the AI is expanding faster than you (at Prince or lower), it is because they are building Settlers more often than you.

Glad to hear it! Im off to buy civ3...

	05-11-2001 06:21									#14
	Re: Re: Observations on AI corruption and production Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Soren Johnson Firaxis The AI does have to pay for its troops and improvements just like humans...

Ok, one last question for you then. Given the thread that shows an AI will pay 1,000,000 gold per turn in tribute if it's desperate enough... Is the AI allowed deficit spending? Or is that one of the reason it always seems to have few improvements, it's being forced to sell them?

If that's the case, could the AI be taught some fiscal responsibility?