05-11-2001 05:56									#1
	Apolyton ExtraCivs Pack: Americans Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Read my first post in this thread for an elaborate introduction: if we make an Apolyton Pack for Civs, should modern civs that were once European colonies (in particular the Americans but it also applies to Canadians, Australians, Mexico, Brazil, etc - should it ever become an issue) have a chance of being included in the mod?

	05-11-2001 10:52									#2
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Though not particularly an americanophile, I've voted for the Americans and against other former colonies. Not out of some principle but whether you love them or hate them, one thing cannot be denied: You can't get rid of them. No other former colony would be important enough to be one of 16 or even 32 World-Civs.

	05-11-2001 12:33									#3
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If were going to clean house, I suggest that a certain cut off date be set... say 1000AD. If you weren't around by then, your not in the game. This would also mean losing all industrial/modern special units!

Oh, and the civ uses the name of pre-1000AD, not post.

	05-11-2001 16:37									#4
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I believe there should be representatives from all the continents in the world, excluding arctic/antarctic (wouldn't be fun starting surrounded by ice).

This means that Australia should be in, or at least the Aborigines, whom have occupied Australia for at least 30,000 years.

	05-11-2001 17:17									#5
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Trachmir,
So you're saying you would remove the following civs from the top 50 (or top 32, after removing them)?

Aztecs
Iroquois
Zulus
Americans
Russians
Spanish
Mongols
Incas
Turks/Ottomans
Portuguese
Dutch
Poles
Malians
Austrians
Australians
Sioux/Dakotas
Magyar/Hungarians
Brazilians

	05-11-2001 19:50									#6
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USA should be in for filling up the American coninent.
And so should the incas.

	05-11-2001 22:21									#7
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Locutus: the official date recognized as the year of the creation of the Polish state is 966 AD. Just a sidenote a propos your list .

	06-11-2001 16:40									#8
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LoD,
True but they weren't exactly a world power in those first 30 years were they? Of course people lived in the Netherlands, Spain, Portugal, Mali, Russsia, etc. as well (even had some degree of independence in most cases) in 1000 CE but none of these civs were of any real significance. This is what I was referring to and what Trachmir seems to refer to as well (but I could have misunderstood him).

	06-11-2001 17:55									#9
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Considering I'm against England being in because it's a German colony, it's pretty obvious I'm against the US and other colonies

	06-11-2001 18:49									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Trachmir If were going to clean house, I suggest that a certain cut off date be set... say 1000AD. If you weren't around by then, your not in the game. This would also mean losing all industrial/modern special units! Oh, and the civ uses the name of pre-1000AD, not post.

Luckily the Haudenosaunee (Iroquois) were a distinct people from around 900 AD when they started to turn to agriculture.

	07-11-2001 00:41									#11
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Locutus: I must dissent. First of all, to clarify, the Poles were united some time before that date.
Secondly, Trachmir said "if you were around", not "if you were a major world power".
Thirdly, were the Germans a major world power at that time in your opinion? You have not included them in the list, which indicates that. If so, what does it tell you about the might of the young Polish country if it kicked German ass in the battle of Cedynia, 972?

Sorry I am straying of topic, but I must make my point for the simple reason my national pride has been hurt .

	07-11-2001 06:30									#12
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*snifs*

Argentina isn't even mentioned...

*snif*

	07-11-2001 08:26									#13
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The Inca Empire survived only about 2 or 3 centuries, but Brazil is 500 years old and it is the greatest power all over World Southern Hemisfere.

So, Brazil must be included.


These are in my opinion the most important Civs in American continent history:

1) The USA
2) Brazil
3) Aztec Empire
4) Mayan Empire
5) Mexico
6) Argentina
7) Incan Empire

8) Guarani tribes
9) Inuits
10) Paraguay (strongest Larin America army in 19 th Century)
11) USA native indians.


12) Canada and the others

	07-11-2001 11:19									#14
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I'd include only USA.

It really developed a predominant culture (so much that many country don't like it at all). And it is pretty distinctive.

	07-11-2001 12:55									#15
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I've just voted and I discoverd the "anglo-only" option is winnig. Do people really think anglo-colonies are the only true ones and the spanish and portuguese colonies aren't? If so, this has two interpretations:
a) Ignorance
b) Racism
I'll suppose it's the (a) option.

	07-11-2001 17:07									#16
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quote: Originally posted by PMLF The Inca Empire survived only about 2 or 3 centuries, but Brazil is 500 years old and it is the greatest power all over World Southern Hemisfere. So, Brazil must be included. These are in my opinion the most important Civs in American continent history: 1) The USA 2) Brazil 3) Aztec Empire 4) Mayan Empire 5) Mexico 6) Argentina 7) Incan Empire 8) Guarani tribes 9) Inuits 10) Paraguay (strongest Larin America army in 19 th Century) 11) USA native indians. 12) Canada and the others

I am enough of agreement with this selection

	07-11-2001 18:33									#17
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quote: Originally posted by jasev I've just voted and I discoverd the "anglo-only" option is winnig. Do people really think anglo-colonies are the only true ones and the spanish and portuguese colonies aren't? If so, this has two interpretations: a) Ignorance b) Racism I'll suppose it's the (a) option.

Where would you rather live:
a) Australia or Colombia?
b) Canada or El Salvador?
c) USA or Bolivia?
d) New Zealand or Honduras?

I rest my case.

	07-11-2001 19:11									#18
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by PMLF The Inca Empire survived only about 2 or 3 centuries, but Brazil is 500 years old and it is the greatest power all over World Southern Hemisfere. So, Brazil must be included.

I agree with Brazil. They are clearly different from the Portuguese who once
claimed the territory.

quote: These are in my opinion the most important Civs in American continent history:

Well, here is my list (might still change as I learn more):

1) Maya
2) USA
3) Iroquois
4) Tiahuanaco
5) Brazil
6) Anasazi
7) Inca
8) Pueblo
9) Olmec
10) Aztec
11) Mexico
12) Hopewell
13) Cuba
14) Sioux
15) Jamaica
16) Algonquin

Made it a full 16

	07-11-2001 19:50									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Gangerolf Where would you rather live: a) Australia or Colombia? b) Canada or El Salvador? c) USA or Bolivia? d) New Zealand or Honduras? I rest my case.

The standard of life is not related at all
with the fact of being a civilization or not.

India,China,Egypt are in the game
would you like to India?

And this pack should be done by zones.

Sudamerica,

Incas,
Brazil,
Argentina.

Central America,
Aztecas and Cuba,

North America
U.S.A
Sioux or another north american tribe.
I think that there is a pack for canada.

I think that PCo
has made a very good list,

Ribannah
do you really believe that the Iroquois,Anasazi and the civilization of Tiahuanaco deserves more to be in the game than the Incas?
The Incas managed to control a very large and well organized empire without horses.

	07-11-2001 20:08									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Kublai-Khan Ribannah do you really believe that the Iroquois,Anasazi and the civilization of Tiahuanaco deserves more to be in the game than the Incas? The Incas managed to control a very large and well organized empire without horses.

The Iroquois didn't use horses either to make their very large empire. (Grrr ... mounted warrior ... ).
The Incas built on what the Tiahuanaco had started, they are basically the same people in a new empire. They didn't add much to human civilization that wasn't already around. It might be an idea to simply combine the two, like we do with Egypt that also had more than one kingdom. In that case the Incas would be ahead of the Anasazi and I might add the Cherokee, Toltec or Canadians to the list.

	07-11-2001 20:16									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Gangerolf Where would you rather live: a) Australia or Colombia? b) Canada or El Salvador? c) USA or Bolivia? d) New Zealand or Honduras? I rest my case.

I suppose I was wrong. At least in a few cases, it's (b) option.

	07-11-2001 21:07									#22
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I don't know much about Mexican history when it wasn't a colony anymore, but I wouldn't rank it above Argentina, PMLF.

	07-11-2001 21:39									#23
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Gangerolf, sad post, man, very sad. You've missed the point completely. But let's play your game now. Where would you rather live:

Argentina or Tanzania
Mexico or Kenia
Chile or Bangla Desh
Brazil or Belize

I rest my case. Arrogance is infinite I guess.

	07-11-2001 23:46									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Gangerolf Where would you rather live: a) Australia or Colombia? b) Canada or El Salvador? c) USA or Bolivia? d) New Zealand or Honduras? I rest my case.

Extermination or Integration (miscegenation)

It's easier to build up a country once you've nearly exterminated their native population.

	08-11-2001 00:16									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Ribannah I agree with Brazil. They are clearly different from the Portuguese who once claimed the territory. Well, here is my list (might still change as I learn more): 1) Maya 2) USA 3) Iroquois 4) Tiahuanaco 5) Brazil 6) Anasazi 7) Inca 8) Pueblo 9) Olmec 10) Aztec 11) Mexico 12) Hopewell 13) Cuba 14) Sioux 15) Jamaica 16) Algonquin Made it a full 16

Iroquois, Anasazi, Pueblo, Hopewell, Sioux and Algonquian were local civilizations. I don't think that they should be included. Maybe an option would be include them as "Native Americans".

About Tiahuanaco, I can't see how they as historically more important than Brazil, Inca, Aztec or Olmec.

	08-11-2001 01:12									#26
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quote: Originally posted by PMLF Iroquois, Anasazi, Pueblo, Hopewell, Sioux and Algonquian were local civilizations.

Whereas Paraguay, of course, is one of the global powers ....

quote: About Tiahuanaco, I can't see how they as historically more important than Brazil, Inca, Aztec or Olmec.

In that case don't copy my list

	08-11-2001 01:42									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Jay Bee Gangerolf, sad post, man, very sad. You've missed the point completely.

Didn't you guys see the ""?
I was trying (in an ironically way) to explain why some people voted the "Pah! The only true colonies are British colonies! What good has Mexico or Brazil ever done?"" option.
Jasev concluded it was out of either ignorance or racism. I think it was simply out of arrogance.

	08-11-2001 02:31									#28
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Gangerolf, thanks for the clarification. There is a lot of insensitive arrogant people in these forums and I was surprised that you could be one of them. But that message was very equivocal, you must admit that

	08-11-2001 05:54									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Waku Extermination or Integration (miscegenation) It's easier to build up a country once you've nearly exterminated their native population.

Rather a naive assertion, don't you think? It's not as if any of the former colonial powers has a great deal to boast about with regard to the treatment of indigenous peoples. For the Australian Aborigines, you could just as easily cite the Carib and Arawak Indians. For the Maoris, many of the Amerindian peoples of the former Spanish colonies in the southern United States. And let's not even get into the subject of the expulsion of the Moriscos and the Jews. Empire building isn't pretty or polite, whoever does it.

	08-11-2001 18:02									#30
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Argentina!
The Latin Americans will rule the world!! (some day)