05-11-2001 08:08									#1
	my seven complaints about civ 3 Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

All else about the game is fun... I liked it enough to get into an arguement over the computer with my girlfriend.

The Complaints:

1. Rivers are too rare. This makes irrigation rare. As a result you have lots of mines all over your grasslands. This looks stupid.

2. Population quickly reaches maxes... I get up to 6 way before aqueducts and up to twelve way before sanitation. And this is W/O irrigation. Come again?

3. Islands without rivers can't be irrigated.

4. Mt. ranges don't connect and look stupid. Individual mountains look good

5. The random maps still bunch up terrain types too much. How often in Civ2 were there 10 rows of hills or mountains follow by 10 rows of grassland. They should be more diversified

6. Watching my elite warrior kill the barbarian horseman 20 times gets old. (i know animation can be turned off)

7. There is no prompt for civil disorder

	05-11-2001 08:25									#2
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: There is no prompt for civil disorder

I'm pretty sure this will be fixed in the patch. (which i hope will be released before November 17)

	05-11-2001 10:35									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

1. Rivers are too rare. This makes irrigation rare. As a result you have lots of mines all over your grasslands. This looks stupid.

-What are you a self-conscience leader? Notice the color of the warrior's axe handle matches the color of his fur boots? That's no accident.

2. Population quickly reaches maxes... I get up to 6 way before aqueducts and up to twelve way before sanitation. And this is W/O irrigation. Come again?

3. Islands without rivers can't be irrigated.

-Contradictory. If you say you don't need irrigation then why complain about not having it (appearance I guess.) Hint: Electricty allows irrigation from any water source.

4. Mt. ranges don't connect and look stupid. Individual mountains look good

-So it's like that. Go on with your bad self.

5. The random maps still bunch up terrain types too much. How often in Civ2 were there 10 rows of hills or mountains follow by 10 rows of grassland. They should be more diversified

-Diversified? Ever been to Kansas - all plains. Hint: Older planets have more diversified terrain.

6. Watching my elite warrior kill the barbarian horseman 20 times gets old. (i know animation can be turned off)

-How does killing barbarians get old?

7. There is no prompt for civil disorder

-Tell Governor to handle this. Out of sight, out of mind.

	05-11-2001 10:41									#4
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

it's not just the looks of the irrigation. in civ2 your town couldn't get very big w/o irrigation. this is realistic. you need lots of food to support your population. i have a hard time conceptualizing grasslands filled with mines. It doesn't make any sense. because irrigation is so hard to come by people make mines: the only terrain improvement besides roads that can be built everywhere... i think this is stupid... they should have more rivers.... mines should only be for hills and mountains.... and oil places in the desert and tundra....

	05-11-2001 10:46									#5
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Auslander -What are you a self-conscience leader? Notice the color of the warrior's axe handle matches the color of his fur boots? That's no accident.

Or how about the worker's gardening clogs matching his pruning shears?

	05-11-2001 11:37									#6
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by tleilaxu it's not just the looks of the irrigation. in civ2 your town couldn't get very big w/o irrigation. this is realistic. you need lots of food to support your population. i have a hard time conceptualizing grasslands filled with mines. It doesn't make any sense. because irrigation is so hard to come by people make mines: the only terrain improvement besides roads that can be built everywhere... i think this is stupid... they should have more rivers.... mines should only be for hills and mountains.... and oil places in the desert and tundra....

Why should oil only be in desert and tundra? I wasn't aware that Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, Texas, the Gulf of Mexico, the North Sea, Indonesia, or Venezula counted as desert or tundra. All of these places have or had working oil wells in the last 100 years. And thats just a few of the places I could think of off the top of my head.

There's really no reason that the terrain creation system for Civ3 shouldn't place oil anywhere it wants, considering that the presence of oil-bearing strata has little to do with the current climate of a region.

	05-11-2001 13:10									#7
	Increase Your PM Length

this is irrelevent... who cares about oil... what i'm talking about is the ridiculousness of having a town surrounded by mined grasslands.... stupid stupid stupid

	11-11-2001 22:45									#8
	Inflate your Upload Space

Yeah, I didn't like the terrain improvments that much either. I gave up on my very first game after only a few turns because there was no fresh water anywhere near me. I don't like the mines either, are we actually supposed to use up good grassland with mines? I see the computert always does it, making a kind of checkerboard. I always replace them with irrigation when I capture their cities.

	12-11-2001 00:05									#9
	Suffering from ads?

but, the thing is, what good is a 23 size city with like 4 shields? It is much better to have diversified cities, so while it may look stupid, its pretty handy to have mines on grassland.

Also, aout irrigation, ever saw a nation irrigating with salt water in the old ages? And yes, those civ stuck on that island with no fresh water couldn't irrigate. Instead of having big cities, you gert very productive cities, which is a good tradeoff in my opinion. I managed to win twice(spaceship/culture) starting on a island with no fresh water. Not that bad actually.

	12-11-2001 01:07									#10
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Your the only one I've seen complain about population maxes & mountain ranges. They are fine to me.

quote: Rivers are too rare. This makes irrigation rare. As a result you have lots of mines all over your grasslands. This looks stupid.

My 1st game I had my own Australia-like area to myself, but I had SO MANY rivers that most my roads were near useless, until Engineering (bridges). From what I can see the smaller the map, higher water %, & Archipelagos the less likely rivers will exist. Thus simply having more 1square lakes or tiny rivers in these types of maps would solve the problem. In the meantime if you want rivers - don't play Tiny Archipelago maps with 80% water, but lean more towards Huge maps with 60% water.

quote: 5. The random maps still bunch up terrain types too much. How often in Civ2 were there 10 rows of hills or mountains follow by 10 rows of grassland. They should be more diversified

Click on planet age 5 billion years instead of 4 billion years... not that hard.

quote: is the ridiculousness of having a town surrounded by mined grasslands

I agree with this. Although it is strategically useful as Karhgath stated, it just looks so awkward.