06-11-2001 05:02									#1
	c193# THE ULTIMATE GAME? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

<A href=/forums/"/misc/column/193_ultimate.shtml" target="_top">193# THE ULTIMATE GAME?</a>
<i>Is there such thing?</i>

Last edited by MarkG on 06-11-2001 at 05:44

	06-11-2001 06:47									#2
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

If only developers would put quality over quantity in their list of priorities. What do I care about any number of features that the AI can't be taught to use?

But my main problem with Civ II and Alpha Centauri is that it's only fun as long as I'm the underdog. As soon as I've become the most powerful on the map, all I can do is make mistakes, and each turn takes ages. Sure, I read about that alternative way of playing where you switch to the least powerful as soon as you become the most powerful, but that'd be like switching characters in a roleplaying game. I don't want to play any faction where I wasn't the founding father

Anyhow, I don't keep my hopes up for any kind of ultimate game. I just try to get the best game within any genre that I happen to be interested in. So far I'd say Diablo II has provided the best value, as I played it for about a year before a missing file on the realm server drove me away. But at that time I had already begun playing that game in an alternative way, so I guess I was pretty close to being bored anyway

If there's one thing I've learned from my days of playing games it's that other people provide the most longevity to any game. So if there is such a thing as an ultimate game, it's most certainly a multiplayer game, and probably one where the players can create a lot themselves. One of these days I'll pick up Arcanum again and see if that comes closer to being "ultimate"

	06-11-2001 07:17									#3
	Remove this text

man cannot create something perfect like that.

besides, if you had the perfect game you would never stop playing it and it would ruin your life!

	06-11-2001 07:45									#4
	Gamer Party Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Of course weve all know it since our first game, in the back of our minds we can feel what should be right... but never has that rightness come forth in all its splender.

The programmer class, they feed off of the gamer class so they can go on their secret retreats to the Nevada desert.

The gamers disdain to conceal their view and aims. They openly declare that their ends can be attained only by forcible overthrow of the programmer class. Let the programmer class tremble at a Gamer revolution. The gamers have nothing to lose but their chains. They have games to win.

GAMERS OF THE WORLD UNITE!

----------------
Join the Gamer Party Today

Last edited by rguilliman on 06-11-2001 at 07:56

	06-11-2001 08:16									#5
	Re: Gamer Party Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by rguilliman Of course weve all know it since our first game, in the back of our minds we can feel what should be right... but never has that rightness come forth in all its splender. The programmer class, they feed off of the gamer class so they can go on their secret retreats to the Nevada desert. The gamers disdain to conceal their view and aims. They openly declare that their ends can be attained only by forcible overthrow of the programmer class. Let the programmer class tremble at a Gamer revolution. The gamers have nothing to lose but their chains. They have games to win. GAMERS OF THE WORLD UNITE! ---------------- Join the Gamer Party Today

have you been to the OT yet? i think you may fit in there......

	06-11-2001 14:38									#6
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

You know what, though, the thing that makes Civ games so much more interesting than other games is the amount of time everyone who plays it invests in it. That's why a community developed around it, and thats why people gripe about various problems with the games. I can see what you are saying about becoming the top dog makes the game boring, but think about how many hours of being the underdog it took to become the top dog. The reason guys like me, who really don't play civ games all that much any more, still post here is that we put so much time into it and made connections around the game that it's very hard to pull yourself out of.

	06-11-2001 15:22									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

You know, this brings to mind something that Sid Meier said recently about game creation. I can't find the interview where he states this, but basically he said that hit games are almost impossible to make 'in the garage' anymore because of the shear size and scope of today's PC games.

I have often thought that the days of games like Civilization, Myst, X-Wing commander are over becuase the big corporations have taken over the game developing industry. At the same time, I feel that year-by-year, the depth and creativity, as well as the general 'fun' of PC games, has been decreasing overall, with only the rare glimmer of game greatness shining forth every so often.

I myself have pondered getting a small group of people together to start creating PC games 'in our garage', just to get us into the business. I wonder if that is what is needed these days- more 'on your own, in the garage' developers who have originality, creativity, and motivation to just make fun, kewl games.?

Maybe it really IS time for the Gamer class to overthrow our Programmer taskmasters? Or rather, the Corporate Empires that seek to rule by way of marketing, instead of producing great products.

	06-11-2001 15:43									#8
	Get a bigger avatar today!

The idea of a perfect game is ridiculous because I know loads of people who only play role-playing games and others who only enjoy sports games. It's impossible to create the perfect game that will appeal to all gamers. You can be very close to perfection in all the different genres but still not appeal to all gamers, or even all fans of that genre. Civ is undeniably a great game in all its forms but lots of strategy game fans don't like it because the emphasis is not solely on combat and you cannot have any more control of events on the battlefield than moving your unit to attack the enemy's unit. Everyone wants something different from their computer games and so you can't cater for all.

	06-11-2001 19:14									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: MOO2 - If only they'd kept the elements of MOO1 that made it work.

How true, how true.

If only Diablo II didn't have that ridiculous save system.

If only Escape From Monkey Island was near as fun as The Curse of..., for a variety of reasons.

If only Call To Power, well, had a bunch of things fixed.

If only you could found cities in Age Of Wonders.

If only you could turn off the IFP system in MOO3

If only I had Civ3, then I could find things to complain about it.

but most of all..........




IF ONLY DEVELOPERS WOULD CARE LESS ABOUT HOW THEY WANT US TO PLAY AND MORE ABOUT HOW WE WANT TO PLAY.

I have seen more games which seem to force you into certain methods of play because they think "that's how we meant for the game to be played. MOO3's IFP points are an excellent case in point.



a couple of games Vying for the ultimate title soon.

Dungeon Siege - because it promises to be outrageously customizable.
Neverwinter Nights - because it will be designed to be used by fans everywhere. perhaps the, ahem, ultimate MP experience.

Maybe customizability is a big key, since all of our opinions differ so much. get tired of playing in your world, come play in mine kind of idea.
BTW, I really liked the article.

	07-11-2001 09:54									#10
	Support Apolyton

No game can be ultimate ( chess is close ), only evolutionary. The best video games will always have some flaws, the industry deadlines command it.

	08-11-2001 06:04									#11
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Talking about the ultimate game is like talking about gamer heaven. If you could have everything in one little package, what would it be?

I think that the point made earlier about genres is important. Different genres have different concepts of ideals. Thus, the ultimate gam isn't really the ultimate game, it's the ultimate TBS, RTS, FPS, RPG, or other three letter abbreviation.

As far as games being more fun in the past, I understand the emotion, but if you've played even the really good games, (Civ I for example) you'll realize that the AI was often terrible, customization was virtually nil, graphics were often blocky and a general eyesore, internal control was narrow (Wolfenstein 3D allowed much less freedom of movement than later first person shooters), and even the interface was often clunky and inellegant.

What made those games so remarkable was that they were so much better than anything that came before. I think that trend at least will continue.

	10-11-2001 10:18									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Imperium Galactica II... if only it had multiplayer and a decent AI and no auto-resolution of battles no matter how hopeless it was!

Moo3's IFP system will be hacked within the first month of the game to allow infinite IFP's.

	15-11-2001 00:33									#13
	the OT? Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by d_dudy have you been to the OT yet? i think you may fit in there......

the OT, hmm. just maybe I will.