08-11-2001 00:16									#1
	Simmer down now... Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I know that we are all angry and dissapointed about the seemingly staggering amount of bugs found thus far in Civ III. I would, however, like to ask everyone to exercise restrain and intelligence when posting them.

For starters, please read the posts in the threat you are posting to. A larger part of the reason why the official thread is four pages long is because the same issues are posted over and over again, even after they have been solved. As a remedy I would suggest people use this thread, or create an official one, that will list only the confirmed bugs in Civ III, and there can be no repeat posts.

Second, berating Firaxis for a lack of playtesting will get us nowhere. I personally am not overwhelmed by the amount of bugs we've found when you consider this: Firaxis probably had about fourteen people playing the game at any given time, and these people also had to program it as the went. The Civ III players community had literaly thousands of members who have probably been playing for about thirty-six straight hours thus far In the week since the game's release we as a whole have put in more testing hours than the entire Firaxis team. Civiliation III is an immensely complex game, and we should expect to find a few errors.

To put it in a nutshell, let's do what we can to help Firaxis fix our game, starting with the the serious issues that make the game unplayable (or very difficult to at least) such as the non-intercepting fighter missions, then move on to play balancing, sound, and the like.

It's time for the Civ community to pull together and help Firaxis out. It's the least we can do to thank them for getting us this far.

--> Norm

	08-11-2001 01:48									#2
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Good post, however I disagree on a few issues.

First of all, I feel that a long thread that lists a number of bugs within it is too complicated and disorganized for accurate bug reporting. I feel that each bug needs its own thread as individual issues get lost in a long, meandering thread. Each bug is its own work item open to debate and should be individually addressed.

For that reason, I am posting each bug I find to a new thread with the "BUG:" prefix. I am posting feature requests and repro requests as well with the prefixes "REQ:" and "REPRO?" as well.

Secondly, I feel we *should* berate Firaxis for their in-house only testing. I've stated several times on this forum my opinion that lining up a few dozen outside beta testers under NDA would have helped to find many of these issues well beforehand.

A bit of public exposure and beratement may be what it takes to persuade Firaxis to modify their in-house testing policy. Not just in the hope of getting outside beta testers involved, but to change their own internal policies. I don't doubt that some features such as fortresses and air superiority missions were unit tested during development, but there appears to have been a serious lack of regression testing as more features were completed and may have caused previously working features to break.

Yes, I agree that we need to help Firaxis identify the more serious issues and get those fixed first. However, I feel we should report every bug we find here, trivial or non-trivial, and let them prioritize accordingly.

Most importantly, though, I think it's important to remember that Firaxis likewise has an obligation to us, who have given them our money for their product. Yes, I do thank them for producing Civ3, but I also expect to get a higher quality product than it is in its current state.

That's my $0.02!

Dar Steckelberg

	08-11-2001 05:13									#3
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Actually, I agree with you on most of what you said; I wasn't quite as clear as I should have been. I didn't intend to defend Firaxis' in-house testing. Frankly, that fact completely slipped my mind. You are right, of course; Firaxis should have allowed at least a limited number of trusted beta testers.

Second, I suppose my view is somewhat slanted in that I have yet to experience any of the bugs that make the game unplayable, save the air superiority error. For me, playing Civ III has been a great experience, and the most annoying bug I have had to deal with thus far would be the screwed up grammar it occasionally uses (I think someone crossed some of the adjective-noun strings).

I do agree that Firaxis needs to be made aware of their blunder, I simply feel that the best way to do it is to calmly present them with a comprehensive, detailed list of every bug they apparently couldn't find. I think that this would be the most productive way to show them the mistake that is their in-house testing policy. Also, shouting at them will only annoy the team and make them less inclined to help us out.

Finally, as for prioritizing fixes, I was referring to those who post what they wish the game would have had in the bug threads. It's more important to get the game working "as is" before we start trying to cram in even more.

--> Norm

	08-11-2001 05:43									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Yes, I definitely agree with you regarding posting bugs with restraint and intelligence. There are quite a few posts that seem to claim the sky is falling because X isn't implemented correctly.

I've seen some of those threads you refer to, and they seem to get messy in a hurry which is why I prefer to post my own bugs individually so they can be addressed individually. That's just my preference.

Let me say, too, that I am very happy to have Civ3 in my hands, and I've been playing it profusely (hence the number of bugs I've been posting). However, I am also somewhat indignant at the thought of spending $60 (for the limited edition) for the "privilege" of becoming a beta tester.

Dar Steckelberg