08-11-2001 21:49									#1
	Fixing The two weakest factions? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

IMO i think the Believers and Morgan are the two 'weakest' links whose bonuses are only occasionally better than their drawbacks. This is a conclusion im suspecting most people have. So... how to fix them?

Easy actually. Bump Morgans' Hab reduction up to -2 (from -3), which gives them at least half a chance. Theyre a civ dependant upon energy production but can't -get- energy out of 4 pop bases. This is pretty obvious imo.

Believers? This was a lot trickier, and nothing came to mind immediately so i perused the faction files until i came upon an unused attribute "INTEREST" which gives a percentage sum bonus per turn on the enery youve accumulated in the bank. So i think INTEREST 10, to represent a church's tithe, goes along swimmingly with their dependace on probe teams for late game combat and gives them more opportunity to ammass needed credits.

Anythoughts? Civs that are worse off and need changing more?

	09-11-2001 20:59									#2
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

While I agree that the AI doesn't do such a great job of playing Morgan, I think that no human needs to play him with any additional advantages. There are no shortage of Morgan specialists and supporters and with good reason.

The Believers are a different kettle of fish. They have less supporters and I find them difficult to play given that I am not a natural momentum player. And even if I was, the Cult, the Hive or the Spartans seem much easier to do well with. But, in my games at least, they can be a decent opponent until I get well ahead of them in the "Conquer" part of the tech tree.

The other faction that many feel is weak in the hands of the AI is SMACX's Cult of Planet. But they can be a lot of fun to play without any modification for a human.

So I guess my point is that play balance is nice, but it is not critical to me that all fourteen factions are equally strong, whether it be in the hands of a human or the AI. Sometimes you want to try a harder faction so it is nice that they are there. And there are plenty of other ways of making the game's AI more challenging other than slight mods to a couple of factions.

	10-11-2001 02:54									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

The Morganites are a very strong faction if they survives long enough for their bases to break size 4. Sometimes, the computer-controlled Morganites get lucky by not starting with any aggressive neighbors. If they do land next to Miriam, Yang, Santiago, Lal, Domai, Svensgaard, Marr, etc., they might struggle.

I've had a computer-controlled Morganite army come at me with legions of hovertanks, needlejets, and shard paratroopers, while using Free Market economics, building all my favorite projects, and generally having the strongest economy on Planet. Morgan can be very strong - it all depends on the opening.

For me, the Cult of Planet is much weaker than the Morganites. -1 Economy and Industry are a much bigger weakness than -1 Support. The latter is easily fixed by using Police State or putting clean reactors on everything. -1 Economy can be circumvented by building many cities; not so with the Industry. Since you can't use Wealth as the Cult, you have to go Planned just to get production speed back to neutral. Eudaimonia fixes all your problems in the economic sector in one shot, but until you get there your production will lag behind everyone else's; and capturing native life for armies is only effective for so long.

	10-11-2001 07:01									#4
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eud is not a social engineering choice in my eyes. its a discount in building the voice of planet and ascent to transcendence.

I mean really, could it get ne higher up in the tech tree?

	10-11-2001 07:34									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Let Morgan get on a large island/small continent by himself and he can be a real tough nutt to beat if you don't take him out.

	12-11-2001 05:38									#6
	. Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Morgan is a very strong faction but has one major weakness. The early game race to hab complex. There very dependant on a good opening but that +1 economy its godly once you get enough nutrients and above hab 4. Late game if you manage to hang in there and get euadomina(spellingblah) it becomes Possible for Morgan to do what no other faction can do IMO take back the game from a dominating empire. with a +4 econ and +3 industry if you have some decent energy income (you prolly do if you survived this long) you can often outright buy transcendance before another person can crawler it (ive managed to get over 20k per turn from my main base alone,transedance is only around 76k credits to buy)

Believers are as said above a whole nother kettle of fish. The -2 research fatally cripples any attempt at builder believers (although its possible) believers are meant to be total agression,extort credits and research from other people. Problem is,in mp games people are stubbron and would rather go down in flames then give up tech ,any tech. on huge maps where believers cant get to you quick,you have a good chance of overwhelming there sad economy mid game.

On another note,the AI plays Morgans badly,and Believers very very well.

	12-11-2001 16:16									#7
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If MP believers, team up with someone else, and run your economy at 0% labs. Bye-bye disadvantage. Not effective in SP, very effective in MP.

Indra

	12-11-2001 18:51									#8
	Inflate your Upload Space

Absolutely, Black Sunrise.

The Believers aren't about research, but about 'taking'

get to Fundy and Power, and you have +3 probe (immunity from mind control) and +3 morale on defense (+2 on offense, but with the +25% bonus)

So why research - just conquer and steal. But being allied with a researching faction - being the 'muscle' if you will for that faction, is a great combination

About the only drawback is poor industry, but the Cloning Vats remove Power's -2 effect, and Planned always gives the +1 boost. so that would be the optimum combo - Fundy/Planned/Power, with the CV.

G.

	12-11-2001 19:51									#9
	Full PM-box? Change here!

heh, power is prolly the worst longterm social choice. u have ne idea how painful -2 industry is? again, yall are just kinda theorizing off the top of ur head instead of actually knowing about these things. sure u can get the vats, and I'd like to know the probability that miriam is the first to get the vats in MP. ne guesses? I'm sure she'll beat morgan and zak to them. u know this is where irony comes in too, wealth is better then power w/ the vats for me.

u can zero labs in SP and win, I dont know if its the most effective thing to do, but surely its not overly complicated, make many probe, foil/land steal tech massive tech from whoever the tech leader is. and really -2 research isn't all that crippling once u get past the midgame and stuff. if ur miriam and u haven't had turn advantage leveraged against u in horrendous ways by like year 120, then ur gna do a lot better.

	12-11-2001 22:05									#10
	Tired of ads?

Yavoon

I am curious as to your perspective on the Drones since they share the -2 research that is so crippling for the Believers BUT also have an industry bonus which you should view as very valuable given your dismissal of the Power choice simply because of the industry minus.

But to keep it on topic and address a lot of what is being said here and in yavoons thread

1. Many, many players go nowhere near social psych in the early days. I am in a (cooperative) game with tau ceti and his morganites do not have ANY rec commons by 2128 . Nor do my drones nor qantaga's PKs. Only one of us has the social psych tech and for now, the others do not want it. Why would anyone want a rec commons when all you are doing is pumping out bases. Oh and all three of us are running FM.

2. I agree that -2 research is not that crippling later-- it is the early game when it really hurts. The game helps that though-- simply find an AI and suck up a little. The tech gifts flow like a river. In one MP game, an AI has now gifted me a total of 5 techs. Between trades, gift and theft a catch-up is possible.

3. As for morgan, played properly it is reasonably strong faction. While ICS is a tactic for any faction it is most suited to Morgan. The Hab limits are a major drawback but the guy generates so much energy he can buy off the world.

4. All the SE choices have their place-- While obviously, some are better more often, a player that dismisses any SE choice is exhuibiting a closed mind

	12-11-2001 23:18									#11
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the drones are my favorite faction, too bad they're in smax? drones are up there w/ zak. +industry is my favorite category, every extra +industry u get it just gets more brutal.

I'm curious, if none of u go rec commons, when do the first SP's come in? thats usually how I get my pre-crawler SP, is a rec commons base. is it just because no1 gets it that, no1 needs to worry about the early SP's being snatched? ur all running transcend difficulty games, w/ no rec commons, no human genome and FM? all ur bases riot at size 2, and some riot at size 1. I don't get it, am I missing somethign? where are u getting drone control? massive food? this seems like a really dumbass move to go on a transcend game w/ no commons no human genome and to run FM. I mean, after 6 bases, ur bases start rioting at size 1(as the b. drones get lumped onto bases). are u all nerve stapling like mad? maybe thats it.

ICS is not made for morgan, morgan just needs ICS more, cuz it has less early vertical potential. Morgan really only has a post hab complex boom, and thats only in smax.

I MIGHT use power for a very short time, if I had like 4-5 commando infantry, and I wnted to move them to elite, and do some major damage. but beyond that, I wouldn't touch it w/ a 10 foot pole. industry is just too important of a category, +1 industry over 20 bases producing 9 minerals each is an extra 20 minerals a turn. thats just sily advantage

	13-11-2001 00:18									#12
	Increase Your PM Length

The drones are one of my favorites as well since I love industry but I have also learned to enjoy the cult (played in an entirely different manner of course) so while I appreciate the benefit of an industry bonus, there are other ways to play.

Nope-- I don't think you are missing a thing. The game mentioned is a cooperative one and therefore it is not typical (we are much further up the tech tree) but the point is that even though we could have rec commons, we (each individually-- we don't really discuss facility builds)have chosen not to yet since they are not yet needed.

As for drones they have been no problem for the Free Drones due to the factional attributes. As for the morganites, they use a doctor until the next CP takes off or psych allocation. At 2128, we are just now having to worry about the Bur. drone problem.

Obviously we will need SPS soon but that is coming along. My SP building base is a size one working on its 4th crawler (no SP started yet) so I do not believe that production will be an issue.

Soon (after building creches-- I did accept ethical calc to go demo ) I will move out of FM and spend some time in Demo/Planned/Wealth for the building and pop boom. So police will help and somewhere along there I will be looking at the rec commons option BUT it might be just as economic to use psych allocation, or with enough crawled food to make it a specialist base .


In a more usual game as ZAK, for instance, I will not research social psych for a long time. Ind auto is the first beeline (and is easily attainable by 2120), and formers,crawlers and CPs are built. No base is allowed to grow to riot. Then you cash the crawlers for the virtual world and the problem is delayed for a bunch of years. I'm doing this in a game at 2135 and have not yet researched social psych.

As some other factions I have also used the permanent size 1 base tactic--or the specialist base tactic-- There are lots of ways to deal with drones.

The point of all this is that yes, rec commons are important but there are enough other ways to deal with drones that social psych is not necessarily among the first 6-8 techs on the must-have list for some players. Miriam can often find someone willing to trade for social psych. I confess that its a tech that I almost never research myself.. When you need social psych it is easy enough to get in a trade.

	13-11-2001 01:09									#13
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I don't see how early game pscyh allocation could even approach the efficiency of a rec commons, besides the fact that its instant and convenient.

I mean wut do size one bases bring in in energy? 3? so u need wut? 50% psych? so u have FM going they bring in 5, but the psych needed to quell the drone negates the FM advantage. do u play on rare native life or huge worlds? I'm thinking it must be one of the two. added to that u dont have ne of the +% psych modifiers that are so plentiful later in teh game.

permanent size 1 base in so inflexible. get attacked, u die, have a mindworm show up on ur crawlers, u hurt bad, afterall, ur in FM w/o trance.

the food thing, its WAY hard to get enuff food early. u can build a rec. tanks, but thats counterproductive to your whole no infrastructure approach, and u don't have the tech neway. no food can get over 2 unless its a nut bonus, or u get the wx paradigm, but the wx paradigm comes way too late, especially w/ a buncha size 1 bases. certainly you can't rely on a nut bonus in every base can u? and then u gotta grow ur drone control, and still one doctor=1 drone, rec commons=2 drones. so u need 2 pop points just to equal a rec commons.

I jus tdon't see how the #'s workout, the best early drone control is rec commons. unless your under police state. and even then I nearly prefer rec commons.

but yah, ur ina cooperative game, not even wroth talking about. who are u facing? the grand pooba, u need 2 partners?

	13-11-2001 02:23									#14
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by yavoon I mean wut do size one bases bring in in energy? 3? so u need wut? 50% psych? so u have FM going they bring in 5, but the psych needed to quell the drone negates the FM advantage. do u play on rare native life or huge worlds? I'm thinking it must be one of the two. added to that u dont have ne of the +% psych modifiers that are so plentiful later in teh game.

Actually --my buddies the morganites are the ones using psych. I looked at an old turn and they have 6 size one bases and their energy production ranges from 6 to 11 IIRC. (they have some rivers, a couple of energy specials etc. and of course +4econ) They are running 20% psych which is enough to make the sole citizen a talent in 5 of 6 bases (so they can grow to 2 easily). This is all without restrictions lifted. All but the pact income would be available in a "normal game".

And no and no to huge world and rare life. Except in the rarest of circumstances I do not get suprised by native life and how exactly does it get to attack the base if you have sensors or just a decent defensive system? Running FM you can still attack with just better than even odds and thats what I generally do, kill them-- I have not lost a base to worms in AGES-- early worms are pathetically weak and the FM penalty does not apply to PSI defense anyway-- I have killed 2 in the last 3 turns while in FM-- later the fungus is moved back and the sensors provide ample warning-- Trance is nice worm defense but I want to be killing THEM for the cash

The minerals you spend on a rec commons early, I would invest in an additional crawler, former or other unit. So more fungus gets cleared, or more sensors put out.

I agreed earlier that the cooperative game was not typical but it is an example where I am pacted early with 3 players and can see what they are doing. Tech is not an issue since we could all build rec commons if we wanted-- we just don't need to YET--


The permanent size 1 base is just a simple tactic to allow military to travel outside the borders-- not all bases will be that way. so I won't have a "buncha" size-1s forever


YAVOON
"the food thing, its WAY hard to get enuff food early. u can build a rec. tanks, but thats counterproductive to your whole no infrastructure approach, and u don't have the tech neway. no food can get over 2 unless its a nut bonus, or u get the wx paradigm, but the wx paradigm comes way too late, especially w/ a buncha size 1 bases. certainly you can't rely on a nut bonus in every base can u? and then u gotta grow ur drone control, and still one doctor=1 drone, rec commons=2 drones. so u need 2 pop points just to equal a rec commons. "

---

The food thing is not hard at all, you just crawl some food for faster growth which can become another size one base.
I have never advocated a NO-INFRASTRUCTURE APPROACH. Most bases (except perhaps a planned "small base") will get a rec tank as early as possible to boost growth (I may sidetrack to biogenetics if the land is arid). Most bases will get a rec commons EVENTUALLY but not in the first 30 years. I thought we were talking about TIMING here as a side issue on your assertion that Miriam would not be able to trade tech since EVERYONE will have social psych by 2130 since it is so darn important. I will not try to defend the idea that rec commons are not good drone control-- I never said that. What I do say is that they :

1.are not necessary EARLY for most factions
2. would take build time which could be better used to build a former, crawler or CP
3. cause an unnecessary early sidetrack from the more important techs of biogenetics, ind auto, centauri ecology
4. will be available when needed through an easy tech trade with most any AI by the time they are needed (pop boom time IMHO)



"but yah, ur ina cooperative game, not even wroth talking about. who are u facing? the grand pooba, u need 2 partners"


Its "Democracy in Peril"-- a scenario where Yang has subjugated the Ai university, consciousness and spartans-- and the humans are the PKs, Morganites and Drones. The maker, Googlie, has tweaked the AI to make them stronger and given them pre-terraformed positions etc. AND given Yang the empath guild so you have to earn your infiltration. Googlie has promised they will be a challenge so yes I guess Yang is the grand pooba.



Yavoon but I guess Tau, Qantaga and I must be dumbasses since neither of us has not built a rec commons yet. Strangely though, we have managed to have no unrest.

	13-11-2001 02:52									#15
	Tired of ads?

rec commons allows 2 additional workers, crawler allows one addition resource to be brought in. I'd have to side w/ the rec commons on which is better. 11 energy in a size 1 base in year 2125? I must REALLY SUCK, cuz I hav enever done that. I mean ever.

wtf is this two energy specials on a river? or something completely insane, wut about the other bases? ur coop game is throwing off ur timing, ur expecting crawlers to be useable by like year 2120. which si silly unless yer zak. and I'm talking about worms that move into fungus then attack ur crawler. not worms after your base, u can't go out then attack w/ infantry units, so u have to move out, then defend, or move everythign in and wait.

I don't personally tie up support in formers until I have crawlers, which is like 2150, at which time I'd usually have a secret project done. obviously yer just spitting out answers at me w/o thinking. but lets look at crawlering food for doctors.

u crawler 2 food for one doctor, thats a crawler which can get killed, that gives u 1 pacified worker, and that only after the base has grown into it, against a rec commons that gives u 2. thats twice the value out of the rec commons. I mean its nice that ur naming alternatives, ur just not realizing that they aren't as good as the rec commons.
I like how u luv to reference ambiguous authority, like ur ****ing michael jordan.

its cute, it realy is

	13-11-2001 03:55									#16
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Yavoon

I don't know whether you suck or not BUT as I said its Morgan with +4 ECON. I think the base square alone gets 6-8 energy depending if on a river or if there is a rec tanks. Then he has some commerce. But in regular games I am routinely getting 6 energy from a base square with no commerce.

Crawlers are usable by 2120 by Zak, Morgan and the Consciousness in "normal games" with any regular distribution at all regarding rivers, monoliths or energy specials.


YAVOON
"I don't personally tie up support in formers until I have crawlers, which is like 2150, at which time I'd usually have a secret project done. obviously yer just spitting out answers at me w/o thinking. but lets look at crawlering food for doctors. "


See thats where we differ-- if the terrain is not good--formers first -- ind auto has to wait a few more turns. Thats why I have sensors and fear worms less I guess. I will also usually have a SP done by 2150 (but it may not be started until the 2130s)



----

"u can't go out then attack w/ infantry units, so u have to move out, then defend, or move everythign in and wait"

Yup--In the event a worm approaches a crawler, the crawler moves a couple of squares (road or river) and harvests another square instead. When the worm gets near a unit whammo--

--



"u crawler 2 food for one doctor, thats a crawler which can get killed, that gives u 1 pacified worker, and that only after the base has grown into it, against a rec commons that gives u 2. thats twice the value out of the rec commons. I mean its nice that ur naming alternatives, ur just not realizing that they aren't as good as the rec commons. "

well you aren't getting the point-- crawling food early means my base grows faster than a comparable base with a rec commons-- depending on the faction, police may handle the growth to size 2 or we use the temporary measure of a doctor. The doctor is only there until needed which is usually until the next CP is rushed.

and a doctor does help two citizens in most cases. I just exceeded burecracy limits in one of my games and the base would unmodified have 2 drones-- turn one into a doctor and the other goes content with no cost or upkeep and the base is still producing-- The crawler can be cashed or moved out of the base radius later in the game



YAVOON
"I like how u luv to reference ambiguous authority, like ur ****ing michael jordan. "

I don't understand this comment . I reference no authority other than my own experience with the game. I won't be drawn into insults.

-----


It is obvious we play the game very differently. My comments would have very little relevance to someone like you that does not bother with formers until 2150. I just provide my perspective. Unlike you, I still think I can learn more about this game. Thats why I debate people like you, that present ideas I see as different. I challenge the ideas to see the basis of them but in this case I remain unconvinced that rec commons are needed very often before 2130.

By contrast, all you see fit to do is disparage anyone that disagrees with you. All I can say is if you want to insult me, at least have the decency to come up with something more witty

	13-11-2001 04:21									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

tons of just flat wrong things u sed. like u wnted to slip one by on me. first doctors never handle 2 drones, since handling a drone is allowing it be a worker out in the fields. u sacrifice a worker, as a doctor, to THEN handle a drone. why u would think otherwise I dont know.

Industrial automation is basically 6 techs away, ind base, ind eco, info net, plan net, cent ecology(its silly to not get this), and industrial auto. thats 5 techs for morgan, u telling me morgan gets a tech every 4 turns? wu tdo u mean normal distribution of energy specials and rivers? I rarely have an early energy special(like I'd want it more than a food/nutrient neway) and I'm lucky to ben era a river, normal distribution for me is no river no energy special, but usually say a river w/in like 5-10 spaces. considering I make rainy games, I don't understand how u can rely on rivers constantly. and of course u can "regularly get 6 energy from a base" like that was what I was arguing. u sed u coul dget 10-12 energy from a size 1 base, not six from a base square. u still need 4 energy from the field. infact, I never mentioned nething about 6 energy in a base square.

where ar eu building this SP among a buncha size 1 bases that crank colony pods and never leave size one? lets leav

e zak outta this, cuz his ridiculous resarch rates make it hard to compare.

as for the base growing faster, U NEED IT GROW FASTER, my size 2 base w/ a rec commons under fre market can work two squares, ur size 3 base w/ two doctors and a crawler can work 1, or u can have a size 2 w/ 1 doctor and work one square. sure u get to size 3 faster, but u need the accelerated growth just to turn him into a doctor, kinda counter productive eh?

and i saved this for later, since u prolly just misunderstood, centauri ecology is the first tech I get, 2150 was in reference to on the avg w/ the factions I play when i get industrial automation. I'm not sure if I mistyped myself, I doubt it, plz read better.

2130? when did this 2130 thing come in? I didnt say u needed rec commons before 2130, I sed most ppl will have it researched before 2130. and that AS PART of MY strategy I usually try and get a project base up very quickly using a rec commons and a nutrient special if I can. but ur gna need rec commons the instant u go vertical, whether this is at 6, or 12, or even 18 bases. rec commons handle drones better than ne other method, and surely better early.

and ur a liar, if u don't know what "appeal to authority" means, this is it, "I guess Tau, Qantaga and I must be dumbasses since neither of us has not built a rec commons yet. Strangely though, we have managed to have no unrest."

I apologize if u didn't understand wut the phrase meant, maybe u should have looked it up.

	13-11-2001 04:54									#18
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More insults but still no wit

QUOTE] Originally posted by yavoon and ur a liar, if u don't know what "appeal to authority" means, this is it, "I guess Tau, Qantaga and I must be dumbasses since neither of us has not built a rec commons yet. Strangely though, we have managed to have no unrest."

I apologize if u didn't understand wut the phrase meant, maybe u should have looked it up. [/QUOTE]

A specific example of two other specific players in a specific game that I was using throughout is an "appeal to an ambiguous authority".

Why don't you call me another name

	13-11-2001 05:30									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

wow we're down to picking at my insults, is that ur huge pedistol, that I'm notwitty enuff for u? is that wuts wrong w/ my argument? I need more wit, it would appear thats my shortcoming.

as u've stoped addressing other pionts, in favor of trying to tell me how unwitty I am.

	13-11-2001 06:10									#20
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I was going to leave this as pointless but the wife is late so here goes-- I appreciate that you will ignore or intentionally misconstrue everything I say but it is kind of fun to see how you transform everything I say.

quote: Originally posted by yavoon tons of just flat wrong things u sed. like u wnted to slip one by on me. first doctors never handle 2 drones, since handling a drone is allowing it be a worker out in the fields. u sacrifice a worker, as a doctor, to THEN handle a drone. why u would think otherwise I dont know. ___ you sacrifice what would be a drone to handle what would be another drone-- so in a size 3 base, 2 are working and one is a doctor Industrial automation is basically 6 techs away, ind base, ind eco, info net, plan net, cent ecology(its silly to not get this), and industrial auto. thats 5 techs for morgan, u telling me morgan gets a tech every 4 turns? wu tdo u mean normal distribution of energy specials and rivers? I rarely have an early energy special(like I'd want it more than a food/nutrient neway) and I'm lucky to ben era a river, normal distribution for me is no river no energy special, but usually say a river w/in like 5-10 spaces. considering I make rainy games, I don't understand how u can rely on rivers constantly. and of course u can "regularly get 6 energy from a base" like that was what I was arguing. u sed u coul dget 10-12 energy from a size 1 base, not six from a base square. u still need 4 energy from the field. infact, I never mentioned nething about 6 energy in a base square. ___ BY normal I mean a pretty average start-- sometimes you get more and sometimes less-- I already explained that the 11 energy base got some from commerce. It actually produced 13 but lost 2 to innefficiency. Oh and I have seen Morgan researching as fast as a tech every 3 turns in the early days--- where ar eu building this SP among a buncha size 1 bases that crank colony pods and never leave size one? lets leav e zak outta this, cuz his ridiculous resarch rates make it hard to compare. ----- What does size have to do with SPs?? crawl some minerals-- as for the base growing faster, U NEED IT GROW FASTER, my size 2 base w/ a rec commons under fre market can work two squares, ur size 3 base w/ two doctors and a crawler can work 1, or u can have a size 2 w/ 1 doctor and work one square. sure u get to size 3 faster, but u need the accelerated growth just to turn him into a doctor, kinda counter productive eh? -- The accelerated growth is not to make a doctor, it is to grow the pop so another colony pod can go out--I start to worry about infrastructure like rec commons only when drones become a problem-- and i saved this for later, since u prolly just misunderstood, centauri ecology is the first tech I get, 2150 was in reference to on the avg w/ the factions I play when i get industrial automation. I'm not sure if I mistyped myself, I doubt it, plz read better. -- No you should write better-- DIRECT QUOTE "I don't personally tie up support in formers until I have crawlers, which is like 2150, at which time I'd usually have a secret project done. " -- Sounds like not many formers to me 2130? when did this 2130 thing come in? I didnt say u needed rec commons before 2130, I sed most ppl will have it researched before 2130. and that AS PART of MY strategy I usually try and get a project base up very quickly using a rec commons and a nutrient special if I can. but ur gna need rec commons the instant u go vertical, whether this is at 6, or 12, or even 18 bases. rec commons handle drones better than ne other method, and surely better early. -- As I have said throughout-- rec commons are a fine method of drone control but not one that gets needs to get researched early by many factions--Pretty much anyone who cannot go FM will use police for early drone control and for FMer's, psych allocation is available. All of this goes back to your assertion that MIriam could never trade social psych since everyone would have it-- and ur a liar, if u don't know what "appeal to authority" means, this is it, "I guess Tau, Qantaga and I must be dumbasses since neither of us has not built a rec commons yet. Strangely though, we have managed to have no unrest." I apologize if u didn't understand wut the phrase meant, maybe u should have looked it up. -----I already dealt with this. I do find it interesting that you failed to address my comment. More directly why are insults a necessary part of your comments?

All I can say yavoon is that it must be nice being omniscient.

{sarcasm ON} You are right about everything you have ever said or ever will say and anyone that disagrees is a dumbass, liar, appealing to an ambiguous authority or thinks they are Michael Jordan. You are the god and we should all bow down to your all encompassing wisdom {Sarcasm OFF}

maybe its a mistake to think you might actually want to discuss things. Unlike you I am sometimes wrong and have often learned there are different ways to play by watching others (infiltration in MP) or listening/debating on this board. There are all kinds of ways to succeed at Smax and only the most rigid would believe that there are not alternatives.


Well my ride is here so thanks for killing some time for me

	13-11-2001 07:02									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by yavoon heh, power is prolly the worst longterm social choice. u have ne idea how painful -2 industry is? again, yall are just kinda theorizing off the top of ur head instead of actually knowing about these things.

It's is arrogance like this that offends people. As hard as it is for you to believe there are several people on these boards with experience and a willingness to share that experience, but when you open up with statements about no one "actually knowing about these things" you'll be hard pressed for any kind of help.

quote: sure u can get the vats, and I'd like to know the probability that miriam is the first to get the vats in MP. ne guesses? I'm sure she'll beat morgan and zak to them. u know this is where irony comes in too, wealth is better then power w/ the vats for me.

I've been beaten to the Vats by Miriam in MP and if you read Googlie's entire post what was being refered to was a good combination of social engineering choices, that didn't neccessarily hinge on having the Cloning Vats, that could be used to wage war, though having the Cloing Vats would be optimal. If you've alreay built your attack units the -2 industry isn't a problem, and on top of that Miriam's support helps counter a percentage of minerals that would normally be lost in support of said units.

	13-11-2001 07:05									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

why do u say things that jsut aren't true. I could make petty comments on how you "construe" things, or how you have no "wit" and be constantly condescending, but I prefer to stick on the obviousness of u just saying false things, lying...etc.

AGAIN, lets work this out, size 2 base w/ rec commons under free market, 2 workers. size 3 base under free market, 3 drones. but if u wna think that maybe the base has zero beaurocracy drones, then we just add. its not difficult, size 3 base w/ rec commons 3 workers, size 4 base w/o rec commons, 3 total drones, 1 doctor, ur stil in riot, u need 2 doctors. so now I'm working three squares and ur working 2, and u had to grow one whole size bigger. and urs is in a unit that can die.

I'm not saying there aren't alternatives, why do u always have this politically correct appeal? I'm saying that the methods ur suggesting AREN'T as efficient as a rec commons, thats wut debating is, or shall I look that up for u too?

size has to do w/ mineral output before crawlers, I thot I already explained this? I think I've sed several times its a pre-crawler SP base. obviously ur not too smart I can understand, u spend too much time attempting to insult me to argue.

NONONONONO, sparky, we are specifically talking about drone quelling methods. not about ICS'ing w/ 4 food and 2 minerals. u specifically sed several times, that psych allocation and doctors are as effective as rec commons, and I've continued to say that it is not. now ur trying to tell me u build rec commons after u go past size 1 bases? this is a complete change. and is more proof of ur switching back.

the "tie up support" was refering to using minerals on supporting formers, not using up the free support, I'm sorry if u construed it differently. I build MORE than 1 former/base usually after I have crawlers.

its completely ridiculous for an FM'er to use psych allocation that early, why are u in FM? allocating even 2 energy/base to pscyh would practically eliminate the advantage of FM at that stage of teh game, yet ur still stuck w/ pacifism.

u also still seem to a)be working under the dillusion that ur always zak, b)think ur in coop game where u get ridiculous tech rates, or c)think u have utopian starting conditions to do wut u want
all three are stupid assumptions, no normal circumstances(yes again we must qualify as normal cuz u can get lucky) would let ne faction zak have industrial auto as early as ur saying.

everytime I'm done, ur biggest pedistol remains taht u don't like how I insult. well I find ppl don't normally like how they're insulted, so fear not, u r not alone.

	13-11-2001 11:47									#23
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Flubber Crawlers are usable by 2120 by Zak, Morgan and the Consciousness in "normal games" with any regular distribution at all regarding rivers, monoliths or energy specials. [snip] I remain unconvinced that rec commons are needed very often before 2130.

Crawlers by 2120? No need for rec commons before 2130?

Ah, you are using directed research! I never use directed research; with blind or double-blind research one does not get crawlers by 2120. (At least, I don't!)

And not having crawlers one doesn't have so many other alternatives besides rec commons. So I think it's fair to say that your statement is only true for those normal games with directed research.

Also, I will note that the Peacekeepers and the Drones are unique in their ability to have size 2 bases in free market at transcend without either allocating a lot of energy to psych or having drone problems. I.e. most factions wouldn't work so well with this tactic at Transcend.

Quite the ICS you are running, too. Of course, it makes even more sense in the scenario you described than it usually does .

The point of this post is to make some of your assumptions explicit, not to disagree with your (Flubber) strategy. I certainly agree that what you describe is a very effective way to win games.

	13-11-2001 16:36									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Basil

you are correct that I was using directed research and that i probably should have been more explicit on that point. But in my defense i was countering the idea that necessarily everyone will have researched Doc psych so early that Mriam would not be able to trade it. In a double-blind world, pretty much any strategy becomes contingent on the tech lotto.

generally my comments now are based on MP with directed research. Although, like you, my main efforts at SP were double blind. Its just very difficult to have a "double blind discussion" since a forest strat for example or heavy use of crawlers could be impossible.

As for the rec commons thing, yavoons misdirection notwithstanding, I never said that I do not use them. What I said is that I do not use them early and consequently put little or no priority on the tech. In the early game, my focus is on getting out another base or another crawler. Doctors with crawlers or psych allocation are not permanent ways to stop drones. Instead they are temporary measures that most of my bases employ intermittently for the first 30-50 years of the game.

To your list, I would add the morganites. I am observing tau in the DiP3 game use 20% psych quite effectively to keep his bases happy. This can be applied when needed,. But to broaden the scope lets consider other factions that do not need an early rec commons

Hive-- with police-- do they ever need them?
Cult-- with FM next to useless, police takes care of early problems
Gaians-- inability to go FM means police
University-- cash a bunch of crawlers for the VW

But as a directed researcher--EVERY tech that you take delays other techs-- The main reason I do not build a rec commons early is that the tech is not on my main beelines which are ecology,crawlers and weapons--Depending on the faction, this can take up most of the early years and by then i am hoping to trade for social psych and eth calc to prepare for the pop boom.

One comment on ICS- I guess i sort of do that BUT I usually have visions of a bunch of crappy bases which is not what I do. Instead I will FM for a good long while and am fairly content to have a bunch of size ones with crawled food or resources and a rec tanks. The idea is to switch to planned around the time creches become available and ride the boom-- rec commons usually get built during the boom after creches. Although I will usually have a base or two that are designed to stay at size one(in rocky areas) and pump out military when I am later in FM

As with anything, I am not rigid in my approach. depending on tech and terrain this gets altered a lot.

	13-11-2001 18:53									#25
	Inflate your Upload Space

. . and I am in the camp that thinks that Morgan needs no fixing.

The believers, well, I don't play them well but they would be so much easier if the starting tech was ecology instead of social psych. Starting with the ability to build formers from the outset would be quite a boost. I'm not certain they need it but it would be the minimal tinkering that would address a lot of prob;ems related to their slow start.

	15-11-2001 02:51									#26
	Inflate your Upload Space

You wanna game with all factions being balanced? Play with seven UoP or seven PKs, or seven miriam.... and so on. This is what make SMAC fun the strenght and the weekness of each faction. You think Beliviers are week? You don't know how to play them. Simply as that.