09-11-2001 18:48									#1
	Should POLY go to subscriptions Get a bigger avatar today!

This post grew from a discussion we had on FFZ. (held while POLY was down).

The basic issue is this. Ad prices have fallen through the floor. While Mark and Dan do not run Poly for profit, Poly does have significant (not to mention growing) expenses. The people who provide servers and bandwidth are in the "profit" business.

So could subscriptions help keep Poly afloat? Or even pay for better services?

Before everybody goes running and screaming. Think about this. How much do you use Poly? How much per hour would some reasonable subcritption cost you? Let's say 50 bucks a year at 500 hours a year. That's 10 cents an hour. A couple evenings out and I'd have paid for Poly subscription.

Also, realize that the whole web is changing to subscriptions. See these threads for examples:

A very professional site for webmaster discussions

And a huge free site that just went subscription


There are a lot of interesting issues to think through in subscriptions. Should we have different types of subscriptions, how should they be priced? How do we still get new users? How much ad revenue will be lost? Will subscribers be spared from seeing ads?

I have an interesting idea. What if we charged a subscription for the right to post? That way we could still have lots of guests coming by getting hooked on then site. And that way we could still perform a "public service" in terms of helping civvers.

Now, I'm waiting for all the arguments about how it won't work. How life should be free BLA BLA BLA. I haven't heard anything yet to make me drop this idea. Remember:

1. Do you value Apolyton? I do and so I'll pay for it.

2. The current ad-based system is imploding.

	09-11-2001 19:01									#2
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

1. Do you value Apolyton?

Yes, I do. But there are several free forums I could turn to to get the same amount of enjoyment should 'Poly start charging fees because I'm not in a position to pay.

	09-11-2001 19:20									#3
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc 1. Do you value Apolyton? Yes, I do. But there are several free forums I could turn to to get the same amount of enjoyment should 'Poly start charging fees because I'm not in a position to pay.

Not so quick there. If those sites are equivalent, why aren't you there? You're here because this site is better. Why wouldn't your time be worth the marginal cost increase of a subscription?

	09-11-2001 19:35									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by GP If those sites are equivalent, why aren't you there?

I found Apolyton first after the death of OWO. Look GP, I'm not saying that Apolyton isn't a worthwhile entity. What I'm trying to say is that a subscription fee will make the free alternatives that are available more attractive to the vast majority of Civvers who either aren't in a fiscal position to pay or don't care to pay.

	09-11-2001 19:48									#5
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Marginal cost, my assfoot.

GP, you have a slight but important advantage over many Apolyton posters - you're adult and have a paying job. Not so with me and many others - we're students, and there's no wage for that. So, our option would be trying to get parents to allow our subscription. Do you think they're going to freely send their money to satanist-looking Greek webmaster so their precious sons can promote extremist views and discuss about drugs in a seedy Civilization website? Do you think we'll even have the guts to ask? No.

Also, moving to subscriptions was pretty big hit for traffic of Salon.com's Table Talk, mainly because there were other left-wing chatter sites in existence for people to move to. Same with Civ sites. There'll just be some other site to move to, and Apolyton becomes like Addicted Civ2 Site or OWO - something for vets to have good memories about and newbies to be ignorant of.

Of course, my entire opinion will be changed to 'charge them heavily' if admins give, shall we say, several important veterans who have obviously became backbone of the forums right to post freely as much as they want to.

	09-11-2001 19:48									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Viewing and posting on apolyton will always be free


<font size=1><i>disclaimer:
1) the above is my opinion and my opinion only until dan agrees with me at which point it will be our opinion and our opinion only
2) i reserve the right to change my opinion</i></font>

	09-11-2001 20:04									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I found Apolyton first after the death of OWO. Look GP, I'm not saying that Apolyton isn't a worthwhile entity. What I'm trying to say is that a subscription fee will make the free alternatives that are available more attractive to the vast majority of Civvers who either aren't in a fiscal position to pay or don't care to pay.

1. So your time is not worth a marginal cost of 10 cents per hour?


or more precisely

2. The added enjoyment of posting where there are 13000 members vs 80 is not worth it?

	09-11-2001 20:15									#8
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Stefu Marginal cost, my assfoot. GP, you have a slight but important advantage over many Apolyton posters - you're adult and have a paying job. Not so with me and many others - we're students, and there's no wage for that. So, our option would be trying to get parents to allow our subscription. Do you think they're going to freely send their money to satanist-looking Greek webmaster so their precious sons can promote extremist views and discuss about drugs in a seedy Civilization website? Do you think we'll even have the guts to ask? No. Also, moving to subscriptions was pretty big hit for traffic of Salon.com's Table Talk, mainly because there were other left-wing chatter sites in existence for people to move to. Same with Civ sites. There'll just be some other site to move to, and Apolyton becomes like Addicted Civ2 Site or OWO - something for vets to have good memories about and newbies to be ignorant of. Of course, my entire opinion will be changed to 'charge them heavily' if admins give, shall we say, several important veterans who have obviously became backbone of the forums right to post freely as much as they want to.

Stefu,

Yeah I realize that we would lose some people who are children or who are just total cheapskates. But there are lots of older civveres on this forum. And even for the kids, they manage to have computers, civ2, go on dates, buy beer, etc. There's probably a way to tap them. Maybe if we formed the NCA. National Civilization Association (sponsored by Firaxis) and gave the whole thing some respectability. You'd join the Association and get the right to post here plus some MP time and some other goodies.

BTW, what is an "assfoot". Could we get a smiley of that?

	09-11-2001 20:33									#9
	Got spare money?

the reason we like coming here is because its so alive with lots of new posters and old posters all the time.

I'd be willing to pay but i think it would be the death of the forums. Most people wouldn't be willing to pay and so the forums would lose much of their attraction.

	09-11-2001 20:39									#10
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by MarkG Viewing and posting on apolyton will always be free <font size=1><i>disclaimer: 1) the above is my opinion and my opinion only until dan agrees with me at which point it will be our opinion and our opinion only 2) i reserve the right to change my opinion</i></font>

Markos,

1. very cute!

2. Let's see....we have the following ideas to raise money to pay for Apolyton (growing) expenses.

A. Ad revenues (cpm)
B. Sponsorship (either "as is" or in the form of an "Association"
C. Subscriptions
D. MP server (probably in conjunction with B.)

There is also the option of reducing costs by

A. Reducing features (being done)
B. frequent down times (being done)
C. Improving efficiency (being done...but not sure how much more can be done.)

3. Would you have accepted this kind of stuff as a column?

	09-11-2001 20:43									#11
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Hey Makeo. This is sort of half troll/half serious. Anyhow, you'd pay for this? You're almost never on anymore...

	09-11-2001 20:45									#12
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Makeo,

You do have a valid point. I just wonder if there's some way to get the scbscriptions ans still keep a critical massog community alive. Sure some will leave. Like they did when Ming became a mod, etc. etc.b

	09-11-2001 20:55									#13
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by MarkG Viewing and posting on apolyton will always be free <font size=1><i>disclaimer: 1) the above is my opinion and my opinion only until dan agrees with me at which point it will be our opinion and our opinion only 2) i reserve the right to change my opinion</i></font>

Serious comment:

1. I applaud your attitude.

2. What would you do if you had to start paying the server costs and the ads weren't paying enough?

3. What would you do if ads couldn't pay enough for needed increases in capacity?

4. Would you and Dan fund Poly existence or growth out of pocket? Neither of you are trust fund babies, right?

5. If we're going to make what you want work (i.e. not subscriptions) than y'all need to generate sufficient revunues or reduce costs sufficiently so that you can stay profitable (for GS).

	09-11-2001 21:10									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

As I stated in the other thread, my brother's site has a 'subscription' that allows the viewers to avoid the advertising; nothing more, nothing less.

Imagine Apolyton doing that: For a small fee, viewers would be shock-the-monkey and pop-up free for an entire month. It's doing well for my brother, and he's just a strip-a-day site. I think many of the better-off Apolytoners may be willing to pay more to be spared the ads than the advertisers are to show them.

	09-11-2001 21:39									#15
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

To charge to have a voice heard is not here on the Internet.

	09-11-2001 21:43									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by MarkG Viewing and posting on apolyton will always be free <font size=1><i>disclaimer: 1) the above is my opinion and my opinion only until dan agrees with me at which point it will be our opinion and our opinion only 2) i reserve the right to change my opinion</i></font>

You forgot the disclaimer:

3) Definition of Free: There will be no direct fiscal cost, however government health officers warn that it may affect your work productivity, social status and general health due to the recently identified "One more post syndrome". Always read the label.

	09-11-2001 22:09									#17
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

GP,

it is kind of obvious that i can not answer all those hypothetical questions

	09-11-2001 22:13									#18
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Bob Dornan To charge to have a voice heard is not here on the Internet.

Bob, the Internet is changing. Don't be a socialist. Who do you thinks pays for the bandwidth?

	09-11-2001 22:16									#19
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Mark, NP. It wasn't meant that way anyway. (As interrogation.) More to make the point that if you don't want to do subscription, you should make sure that you've thought through how to get best ad money.

	09-11-2001 22:19									#20
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

This is meant more as thinking out loud than as criticism or something like that. For some reason it caught my interest.

	09-11-2001 22:54									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

It's a moot point, as it would be in violation of the Civilization Decency Act, which Apolyton administrates.

	09-11-2001 22:54									#22
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

actually i probably wouldn't.

	09-11-2001 23:06									#23
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by rev It's a moot point, as it would be in violation of the Civilization Decency Act, which Apolyton administrates.

The CDA is outdated.

	09-11-2001 23:53									#24
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Should POLY go to subscriptions

Hell no. One-off donation for a new server. Civ3 on one server, rest of poly on t'other.

	10-11-2001 00:48									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Are you trying to make Ape into a paysite?
Or perhaps even pay-per-view?

AFAIK Markos and Dan are keeping the business up
and running of there own free will. I suppose the
idea of ACS isn't to plunder it's visitors and members.
If that would be the case, I suppose writing this message
would cost 0.30$ per min + 0.80$ per smily/hyperlink/image.
BTW, Markos and Dan wouldn't be the ones keeping
the site running, because they could afford to employ
a webteam for that.

So my point is that ACS is a community of volunteers,
and not some guys that are trying to get every single
buck into their own pocket. Or perhaps...

If ACS or/and ACSF would turn into a site that charges
for using it, I would definetly become an active member
of CFF.

	10-11-2001 01:17									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I'm just thinking tthrough the economics. Even if Mark and Dan don't want a profit, they do need to pay the bills. This isn't fairy land.

	10-11-2001 01:27									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by GP I'm just thinking tthrough the economics. Even if Mark and Dan don't want a profit, they do need to pay the bills. This isn't fairy land.

How does it work at the moment?
Why can't this continue?

	10-11-2001 01:36									#28
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Immortal Wombat How does it work at the moment? Why can't this continue?

IW, the BS part of the internet is coming to an end. Server providers expect to be paid.

	10-11-2001 02:01									#29
	Tired of ads?

It is with that attitude

Don't give em money, they have no-one to provide a server for. Ergo, they accept anyhting they can get. If that is minute ad money, so be it. Screw em.

	10-11-2001 02:03									#30
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Or...

Is Apolyton being threatened by Gamestats forcing them to pay? Not as far as I know.

Buy a server. It'll pay off in the long run.