10-11-2001 15:37									#1
	Babylonian Bowman: The most useless special unit, hands down Put an end to popups!

These little buggers get my vote as the lamest special unit in the game.

This special unit is a joke. 2 attack isnt good for jack most civs will have spearmen at least by the time you mobilize to launch any offensive. 2 defense isnt anything special..a spearman can do that. 1 speed, nothing great about that.

Point is I built up about 20 of these special units to clear my island of persia and I coudlnt kill one of his sad spearmen in his first city lost all my units GAWD. The time I wasted building all these i could built a wonder..or alot fo infrastructure.

I have played most the civs and tested all the special untis so i wont belabor that these are the most useless by far. These are good for nothing. Swordmen are way better. SO why even give the babylon this...its a joke. If I want to defend my cities ..i'll do a spearman. These units are too weak for offense so WHY? What are they good for... they cant even explore with 1 speed. I dont get what they are used for, why eve build them? These Units get my vote as the lamest special unit in the game.

Think about it... you are rome...your gonna use the legion..3.3.1, persia an imortal 4.2.1, china rider 4.3.3. I can go on...these bowman units are so lame as too not be better than other untis that are available at the exact same time that they are.

but I am just really irked from that last game.. thus i rant

argh.....

	10-11-2001 19:05									#2
	Re: Babylonian Bowman: The most useless special unit, hands down Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Leonid These little buggers get my vote as the lamest special unit in the game. This special unit is a joke. 2 attack isnt good for jack most civs will have spearmen at least by the time you mobilize to launch any offensive. 2 defense isnt anything special..a spearman can do that. 1 speed, nothing great about that. Point is I built up about 20 of these special units to clear my island of persia and I coudlnt kill one of his sad spearmen in his first city lost all my units GAWD. The time I wasted building all these i could built a wonder..or alot fo infrastructure. I have played most the civs and tested all the special untis so i wont belabor that these are the most useless by far. These are good for nothing. Swordmen are way better. SO why even give the babylon this...its a joke. If I want to defend my cities ..i'll do a spearman. These units are too weak for offense so WHY? What are they good for... they cant even explore with 1 speed. I dont get what they are used for, why eve build them? These Units get my vote as the lamest special unit in the game. Think about it... you are rome...your gonna use the legion..3.3.1, persia an imortal 4.2.1, china rider 4.3.3. I can go on...these bowman units are so lame as too not be better than other untis that are available at the exact same time that they are. but I am just really irked from that last game.. thus i rant argh.....

I clear continents with archers all of the time. Babylonian archers couldn't be any worse. The key is to not build 20, but to start with 4-5 and attack them before they get walls. Keep building the other archers while you are capturing cities. Well, I play Tiny with 16 civs so I have to conquer to expand. Much, much more fun.

Yes, there is at least one unique unit that is very, very good: the Greek hoplite. He's basically a pikeman (1.3.1), but he costs less and doesn't require a tech. Well, actually he requires Bronze Working abut the Greeks start the game with that tech.

I build him in 3700 BC and keep him until Musketmen come along. Awesome!

	10-11-2001 19:16									#3
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I dont like the man-o-war, by the time other civs start to make a form of a navy i already have iron clads. They're useless, they have no one to shoot at!

	10-11-2001 19:25									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Wrong_shui I dont like the man-o-war, by the time other civs start to make a form of a navy i already have iron clads. They're useless, they have no one to shoot at!

Play on a higher difficulty.

I like the Immortals. Very effective

	10-11-2001 20:47									#5
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One thing you need to consider is resource requirement. I can't remember what the Babylonian unit requires but if it is something easier to get than iron, you have an advantage. I remember playing several games where it took a while to get iron for swordsmen. So I guess the key is to attack before the enemy gets the resources... Or to cut off their resources and then launch a major offensive...

KoalaBear33

	10-11-2001 21:12									#6
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I will agree that bowmen are not the best city busters

but the are good for active use in the country side

they are cheap and have both good offense and defense (for the time) and so can attack and defend outside cities by themselves

Jon Miller

	10-11-2001 23:16									#7
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Just note:

Since they cost 20 shields, you can use them for defense instead of spearmen.

If you don't have iron, this unit is very important.
Normally, in that case you would "stack" archers with defensive spearmen.
With Babylonians, you will use only bowman.

Now of course, this unit is pretty "obsolete" for offensive purposes after getting iron.
But, you can still use it for defense & that extra point of attack can get handy if you are attacked with horsemen or archer (just attack them).

	10-11-2001 23:30									#8
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If you play Babylonian, Warrior Code should be your first tech.

Build 4-5 Bowmen, overrun your neighbor before they even have spears (if you get lucky).

Bowmen are cheap, early, donīt require resources. They are A/D balanced. A very good special unit, imo.

	11-11-2001 01:28									#9
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bowmen =

I tried again and bowmen cant even take out warriors reliably. I mean they are pretty expensive and very slow by the time you march them up to the players cities if ya lose all 4 or 5 to a coupel of warriors then you really wasted your time. Not worth it. 5 of them couldnt take out 3 warriorin a zulu city last game. I'd rather have cheap jaguar warriors to throw at a city than bowmen. at leats they are fast and can attack en masse more quickly.

Last edited by Leonid on 11-11-2001 at 02:24

	11-11-2001 01:41									#10
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IMO the worst unit is the Jaguar Warrior. I never use Warriors anyway except as a stopgap. Move of 2 means they can just run away from every other unit in the game.....

	11-11-2001 02:14									#11
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quote: Originally posted by justjake73 IMO the worst unit is the Jaguar Warrior. I never use Warriors anyway except as a stopgap. Move of 2 means they can just run away from every other unit in the game.....

I don't know, I've been able to take advantage of the movement rate in the field.. if you use them in packs, the ones the first wave can hang back and heal while the second wave cleans up what the first guys couldn't finish off. Warriors are very cheap, so if you get out a good mass of 'em you can overrun early contacts... as long as they haven't gotten city walls up.

	11-11-2001 02:18									#12
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Nah Aztec Jaguars are really good cool cheap "hut popping" explorers early on. Its like having the expansionist ability along with militaristic and religious. you can turn out a dozen within a few turns and have them cover every part of the continent in no time giving you advances money and civ contact for more advances. Also they can take out barbarian huts everywhere too.

But babylonion bowmen are not good at attack, defense, OR exploring (they are SLOOOOOW) and they cost twice as much as the jaguar warrior. They STINK.

	11-11-2001 03:11									#13
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Actually the bowmen seem to be quite useful until pikemen, as you need not build spearmen at all... and you can still use them to take out approaching warriors/archers. Yes they don't compare to swordsmen, but neither do normal archers.

Egyptian War Chariots are pretty useless except that they are a bit cheaper than horsemen.

Hands down the BEST unit is the hoplite... Greece kicks serious butt. And while INDUSTRIOUS might be better than SCIENTIFIC, the hoplite easily evens the field... a unit you keep from 4000BC to the discovery of GUNPOWDER! Awesome.

	11-11-2001 03:45									#14
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The f-15 is by far the most useless special unit. It's a rare game that you

a) survive long enough to use it
b) have a serious enough rival to mount an air campaign
c) have a rival that wants to mount an air campaign as well (if they don't, just buy bombers)

It happens, sure, but with almost every other unit you KNOW you will use them. F-15....probably not. What % of your games do you acutally use jet fighters in any numbers?

	11-11-2001 03:48									#15
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Yeah I tried to use the bowmen clear continent strategy, and even with barracks, I think I only netted like 2 cities before spearmen were everywhere (and the Egyptians were kicking my butt with their chariots). The very, very early golden age, IMHO, is kinda pointless.

GREEKS RULE... I can expand, set up my infrastructure, keep it all defended very well, and STILL trigger my golden age at a much better point (7-15 cities, most with at least temples and/ or libraries.) Of course, I find it almost impossible to go offensive w/ Greeks until much later in the game.

	11-11-2001 04:33									#16
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Can't go offensive with the greeks? I have staged very early offences with the greeks in 5 out of 8 games so far... Because hoplites are so awesome, you can afford to use fewer of them... thus more attack units. Furthermore, send 1 hoplite with an attack force and you cut down casulties on counter-attacks signifigantly. While you have no special attack capability, once you sieze a city that hoplite virtualy insures that it won't be recaptured! Greeks certainly do rule! And if your worried about swordsmen, find their Iron resources... pillage the road and fortify a hoplite there... no more iron And between the hoplite's 3 defence, fortifing and being on a mountain/hill... they'll use up all their swordsmen TRYING to reclaim the iron... works like a charm!

	11-11-2001 08:38									#17
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I've played the Babylonians in several games -- and I've never built a Bowman. As a religious and scientific nation, Babylon is a culture bomb waiting to happen. Much better to trigger the Golden Age in the Middle Ages by building wonders....

	12-11-2001 19:54									#18
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quote: Originally posted by justjake73 IMO the worst unit is the Jaguar Warrior. I never use Warriors anyway except as a stopgap. Move of 2 means they can just run away from every other unit in the game.....

This is an ability that I expected in the French unique unit. Or maybe a defender that switched sides as soon as it was attacked

	12-11-2001 20:00									#19
	Hoplites: best UU in the game Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Trachmyr Because hoplites are so awesome, you can afford to use fewer of them...

I would vote for hoplites being the best unique unit in the game. No tech or resource required, they can be built in 4000 BC, and they are the hands-down best defender in the game until gunpowder.

The only downside is that they can trigger an early golden age, so I never use them on the offensive in order to postpone it as long as possible.

Like you, I often play conquest with the Greeks.

	12-11-2001 23:46									#20
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quote: Originally posted by player1 Just note: Since they cost 20 shields, you can use them for defense instead of spearmen. If you don't have iron, this unit is very important. Normally, in that case you would "stack" archers with defensive spearmen. With Babylonians, you will use only bowman.

I also thought it is a good idea, but not any more. Remember that you may upgrade Spearmen up to Riflemen and Infantry, while you are stack at Longbowmen with Bowmen.

So, as much as I love playing Babilonians (cultural victory etc.) I agree these is one of the worst CSU (F-15 coming close). They would have been much better as originally intended (i.e. 1/2/2 instead of 2/2/1 - at least you could have used them for effective exploration).

	13-11-2001 03:18									#21
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I think that in PATCH, Swordsmen & Bowmen should be upgradeable to Riflemen.

This way, it isn't that much good idea.

	13-11-2001 13:58									#22
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I would have expected any infantry to be upgradeable to muskets provided the cost was sufficient to make you think hard about doing a blanket upgrade.

	13-11-2001 16:44									#23
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Since Musketmen cost twice much then Pikemen or Swordsmen, and its abilities aren't to much better, there is no need to make upgrade.

In fact pikemen to Musketter is probably THE MOST EXPENSIVE UPGRADE IN THE GAME (exept Horsemen to Knight).

Still, at the end you will upgrade your units to Riflemen, and so I think that any earlier foot unit should be upgradeable to Riflemen.