10-11-2001 18:19									#1
	Who hired Greenpeace to do the resource management?? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Good GOD this is starting to irritate the hell out of me ... I'm seriously considering uninstalling the game because this happens EVERY SINGLE GAME, and after it does there isn't much point in continuing to play.

The same sources of Horses, Saltpeter & Iron supply my civilization with all its needs for thousands of years. Then I get to the Industrial Age, and discover Refining. Voila! I usually have multiple sources of Oil already under my thumb, waiting to be used at a later date.

4-10 turns later, I discover Steel and Combustion ... and ALL MY OIL FIELDS HAVE DRIED UP?!!? How?? I haven't produced a single unit or building that requires oil yet. I JUST discovered that Oil existed, and within a few turns every single source on my continent dries up (the game I've been playing for 5 days, I had all 3 sources after beating everyone to Refining by a mile). This happens to me in nearly every game, but only with Oil & Uranium. As a consequence I'm never able to build the spaceship, or very many (if any) modern military units.

How the hell is that possible? My game is completely hamstrung now - I will not be able to build anything from the modern age, and this has happened in every game I try to play. Am I the only person this is constantly happening to? Am I the only one that is scratching their head wondering what Greenpeace developer on the staff decided to force political statements down our throats? Why is it only Oil & Uranium that are constantly depleting themselves after just a few short years of use?



--DaemonGate

Last edited by DaemonGate on 10-11-2001 at 19:28

	10-11-2001 21:13									#2
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Lol, I believe you can change the percentage chance that resources will run out in the editor.

	10-11-2001 21:23									#3
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Oh so *IF* you get the Oil resource it dries up in a few turns... hmm great.

I have so far only been able to obtain iron and aluminum at best. Makes for a nice combination of building options: Knights or Cruise Missile a.o.

Oh wait! Late in the game...did I say *very* late... I also got a lucky scout of Coal! Ironclads!!!

No salpeter, no oil, no rubber = no modern units except the cruise missiles and the artillery. Idiocy, by the way: being able to build artillery but no infantry. Pfff.

Of course, everyone else has all they need, and yes, I *have* been able to trade. So I got a precious army of Marines (rubber!) and some infantry too! I can't build them anew of course, as they all allied against me... as usual.

	10-11-2001 21:29									#4
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Grim Legacy Oh so *IF* you get the Oil resource it dries up in a few turns... hmm great. I have so far only been able to obtain iron and aluminum at best. Makes for a nice combination of building options: Knights or Cruise Missile a.o. Oh wait! Late in the game...did I say *very* late... I also got a lucky scout of Coal! Ironclads!!! No salpeter, no oil, no rubber = no modern units except the cruise missiles and the artillery. Idiocy, by the way: being able to build artillery but no infantry. Pfff. Of course, everyone else has all they need, and yes, I *have* been able to trade. So I got a precious army of Marines (rubber!) and some infantry too! I can't build them anew of course, as they all allied against me... as usual.

What you do if you want your oil to last until you want to build something useful is as follows. Pillage the road(s) connecting the oil sources to your cities, since whether you us it or not, resources begin a check vs depletion if they're connected to your civ. So just unconnect your sources of oil, or coal, until you need them, and just connect one at a time.

The only downside to this is, later in the game, it's difficult to see where certain resources are (due to mines, roads and mountains etc) so you might miss disconnecting some, and you won't be able to trade them with the AI.

	10-11-2001 21:52									#5
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

A useful tip. I had so far only run into trouble with iron in another game in the very early days.

I'd like to turn this 'disappearance act' off though. Random strike of lightning type of thing. Not much fun.

	10-11-2001 21:57									#6
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Am I the only one that is scratching their head wondering what Greenpeace developer on the staff decided to force political statements down our throats?

It's not a political statement but a scientific/mathematical statement. Oil is very limited and the speed we use it raises expansional so put those 2 things in a mathematical function and you will see that it will become exhausted someday most likley within the first 100 years.

Iron and other resources on the other hand are so plentifull that they won't be use up ever most likely + iron and most other resources can be reused.

	10-11-2001 22:05									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I'll bet they're also responsible for the global warming in the Middle Ages that I experienced.

Man, I really wish you could turn off global warming (Hey, maybe during the 70's the game could briefly switching to global cooling!) :P

	10-11-2001 22:26									#8
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by kolpo It's not a political statement but a scientific/mathematical statement. Oil is very limited and the speed we use it raises expansional so put those 2 things in a mathematical function and you will see that it will become exhausted someday most likley within the first 100 years. Iron and other resources on the other hand are so plentifull that they won't be use up ever most likely + iron and most other resources can be reused.

Yeah, but they weren't used up 200 years ago before we had actually used them much

	10-11-2001 22:46									#9
	Support Apolyton

I think it's safe to say that Sid & friends are environmentalist wackos. In my game, about 4 or 5 pollution squares appear EVERY TURN!!!! And most of my cities don't even have factories!!!!! At the beginning of the game, I was longing for tanks, battleships, & subs. Now that I see all this pollution #?!* going on, I remember how good I had it back when my people were running around half naked in the ancient times!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

	10-11-2001 23:02									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Just to know

Chances of depleton:
Horses & Rubber: never
Saltpeter & Iron: 1 in 800 chance
Coal & Aluminium:1 in 400 chance
Oil: 1 in 200 chance
Uranium: 1 in 100 chance

I think that this is an answer to your question.
(look in the editor)

	10-11-2001 23:04									#11
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Tip:
New resourses will be discovered from time to time.

	10-11-2001 23:24									#12
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

*Phone rings*

[DeamonGate] of Romans
ALL MY OIL FIELDS HAVE DRIED UP?!!? How??

[Abdul el Fazzad] of Persians (with a middle eastern accent)
Oh good sir, president of the Romans! How are you, how are you? How is the roy- er, presidential family doing? Is everything OK in Rome?

[DeamonGate]
I JUST discovered that Oil existed, and within a few turns every single source on my continent dries up.

[Abdul el Fazzad]
No more oil? Oh that's really sad news. Sad. (cries)

[DeamonGate]
game is completely hamstrung now - I will not be able to build anything from the modern age.

[Abdul el Fazzad]
Er, you know that last war where Indians captured two of our units? That was really unfortunate. Our Persian soldiers are brave, but they had Tanks! No matter, my scientists assure me that I will discover modern armor. Oh, hold on. It's time for my oil bath. Mohammed? Prepare my bath please!

[DeamonGate]
Now, listen here you backward, over-agressive- eh, did you say oil?

[Abdul el Fazzad]
Why, yes good sir. But I have to go get my bath. Bad for health, you know, to skip them. I will instruct Mohammad to send you a few barrels of oil for your next bad - we dont want the great leader of Rome to be unhealthy, do we? Good sir said last time that us Persians caused too many troubles here with our immortals hundred years ago, but us Persians are generous people too!











*Disclaimer: This should be taken only in game terms. I do not wish to offend anyone.

	11-11-2001 04:45									#13
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

The oil dissapearing before you built units with it is perfectly justifiable. The way I see it is, they could've dried up because the oil was put to domestic uses before you got a chance to use it pro patria.

After all, you, the ruler don't exist in a vacuum...you have to imagine all your people consuming the resources too.

	11-11-2001 04:50									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by player1 Just to know Chances of depleton: Horses & Rubber: never Saltpeter & Iron: 1 in 800 chance Coal & Aluminium:1 in 400 chance Oil: 1 in 200 chance Uranium: 1 in 100 chance I think that this is an answer to your question. (look in the editor)

LOL @ my 10-turns-poofff-Iron. 1 in 800 I'm so lucky.

	11-11-2001 08:41									#15
	Support Apolyton

Personally I love the resource depletion factor. It adds a whole new aspect to the game - you have to continually develop new strategies to cope with the problem. It is very frustrating to lose your only iron deposit while waging a bloody swordsman fight with your enemies. I love how it makes you scramble to find or take a new iron supply.

Don't have saltpeter? Take it from someone, explore the map, grab a foothold in/near a desert. Same thing with coal or rubber - just get near some jungles! Military conflict over resources makes the game a whole lot more interesting. Instead of taking cities because they have 4 whales, now you have to take cities because they have coal!

Sure corruption is extremely high, but the further you expand - especially on different land masses, the better the position you will be in for that illusive uranium!

Its just like the real world - North America has most of the developed resources, everyone else has to find their own or trade with us for them!

	11-11-2001 10:42									#16
	Full PM-box? Change here!

another tip

build your army before your resources dry up
that way if they dry up you can just take them

but you are screwed if you still have knights in the modern age

	11-11-2001 11:40									#17
	Suffering from ads?

So let me get this straight

It happened in one game where 3 resources dried up...


and your complaining?


aww, poor baby, do you need cheat codes?


Bad luck happens, coping with it is part of strategy

	11-11-2001 13:03									#18
	Likelihood of keeping a resource Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Hi,

Thought you might be interested in some probabilities. If we know the per turn rates listed in earlier posts, we can figure out how likely we are to still have that resource later on.

In order to still have that resource later on, you need to "pass" the depletion check each turn. So the likelihood of still having the resource after n turns is (1-d)^n where d is the "per turn" probability of depletion (e.g. 1/100 for oil).

For uranium, the likelihood of keeping the resource falls off pretty fast:

Turns    %Chance of losing resource
10         9.6%
25         22.2%
50         39.5%
100        63.4%
200        86.6%

(It's important to point out that I'm not claiming a change in the _per turn_ likelihood of losing the resource - just pointing out that you only have a 13.4% chance of passing all 200 of those depletion checks and still having that oil resource 200 turns later.)

You have essentially a 50/50 chance of still having a uranium resource after 69 turns.

Over 100 (and 200) turns the chance of losing other resources:

d         % Chance of losing during 100 turns     200 turns
1/800   11.8%                                             22.1%
1/400   22.1%                                             39.4%
1/200   39.4%                                             63.3%



I haven't seen a table of how many turns are in Civ3 for each difficulty level yet, but clearly resource loss is very likely over the long run.

The real problem with this, in my mind, is that you really have to have access to 7 uranium resources and 3 oil resources in order to be reasonably confident (around 75% confident) that you'll still have access to those resources 200 turns later. I'm not sure the frequency of the resources is high enough to support that.

Thanks,
reger

	11-11-2001 13:25									#19
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Setsuna Man, I really wish you could turn off global warming

It's called "signing up to the Kyoto Treaty"...

Oops, bit of politics crept in there. Sorry.

	11-11-2001 14:03									#20
	Remove this text

quote: Pillage the road(s) connecting the oil sources to your cities, since whether you us it or not, resources begin a check vs depletion if they're connected to your civ.

I think that says it all right there. In fact you don't even need to pillage the roads to your cities, simply the road on the oil resource. And if you have 5 oils, using 1 & trading 1 other that means you can have 3 oils without roads to them. If the oil doesn't have a road on it, it won't be used up, if it does have a road & it connects to your city... your citizens will buy huge SUVs & run it dry. In fact, I would have expected Oil to also count as a luxury item as well.

If you don't have oil or it does run dry: trade for it or fight for it. Quite simple.

quote: Personally I love the resource depletion factor. It adds a whole new aspect to the game

Agreed! Notice how we never see the people who have a resource appear in their area complain.

	11-11-2001 14:16									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I dont see the problem, knights, spearmen and warriors are about as good as tanks anyway.

	11-11-2001 14:21									#22
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Just for sake of curiosity:
did anybody have a resource APPEAR?

	11-11-2001 14:35									#23
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Yoleus Just for sake of curiosity: did anybody have a resource APPEAR?

Yes, I've seen oil and coal appear out of nowhere, so it does happen.

	11-11-2001 15:04									#24
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I does happen. It occured to me that an oil resource in my empire depleted but then another poped up near my capital.

It seems that those resources are just changing positions so that you have to chase it somehow...

	11-11-2001 15:36									#25
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I've had a horses resource run out.

	11-11-2001 15:38									#26
	Support Apolyton

When looking for oil deposits, I find it most useful to focus my exploration around squares that I killed a bunch of dinosaurs in during the early game period.


ER

	11-11-2001 15:47									#27
	Increase Your PM Length

Ok, resources appear, thanks for the replies.
Do you get a message (popup, arrow in the back, etc) or it just happens? I mean, if you have a zone in direct visibility (city radius, space program, etc).

	11-11-2001 19:45									#28
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Yoleus Ok, resources appear, thanks for the replies. Do you get a message (popup, arrow in the back, etc) or it just happens? I mean, if you have a zone in direct visibility (city radius, space program, etc).

I had Iron appear within my borders; there was a pop-up announcing my good fortune.

	11-11-2001 20:23									#29
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Excellent, thanks

	11-11-2001 20:54									#30
	Civ III turn count... Remove this text

If Civ III is anything like the old Civ games, there are somewhere between 400 and 500 turns per game (Maybe 600 at most). And this, given that you get Uranium so late in the game, means that your chance of losing Uranium will -never- get up to the 80% level, unless somehow you're SO advanced in tech that you get it in the 1700's or something. And if that happens, just don't connect it.

In my current game, I have three sources of oil, but only two are connected because I can save that last one for emergencies.

Hell, if all else fails you only really need those resources when you're ready to use them to the fullest, so you can just unconnect them until you need them, and then for the time while you have connected mobilize and make a TON of units, then you'll be pretty well off.