11-11-2001 02:51									#1
	Wonders that are too powerful? Not powerful enough? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I think Sid and the gang have done a wizard job of keeping this game for the most part well balanced, with that applying to wonders as well. I don't think there are any that are TOO powerful, but I will list what I find to be the key wonders to this game after a few play-throughs, as well as the ones that I don't find to be powerful enough. Perhaps suggestions can be made for possible modifications with the editor to balace things out.

The Cream of the Crop
Pyramids
Art of War
Hoover Dam
Sistine Chapel
Universal Suffrage (under the right circumstances of course

Not powerful enough?
Shakespeare's Theatre- Seems to be stuck in the Civ 2 world of City states producing independent units. Probably the worst wonder in the game.
Lighthouse- Expires too soon, has a relativily negligible effect anyway, plus you can only build it coastal cities.
Longevity- Good Culture rating, but by the time it is available your cities have pretty much reached max-population anyway.
Cure for Cancer- I always liked the concept of this wonder, but actually making this wonder LESS powerful than the Civ 2 equivalent makes no sense (1 happy citazen in every city in Civ 2, compared to now only one less discontent citazen).
United Nations- I have found myself dislikign the Diplomatic victory as it seems so abrupt and arbitrary. So what good is this wonder with Diplomatic victory turned off? It needs to do SOMETHING else.
Great Library- This one is debatable I suppose, It is a great souce of culture but it just expires SOO early.

	11-11-2001 03:46									#2
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Defenetly agree with you on shakespeares theatre. I never even built it in the previous versions......

I kinda like Cure for Cancer. Practically a temple in every city, minus the culture, and minus the upkeep. Besides, this late in the game I typically have so much surplus production it's nice to build whatever I can get.

I've always loved the suffrage.....I almost always play as repub/democracy, even in the previous versions. Building was always a crucial part of my strat.

	11-11-2001 04:52									#3
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Longevity: Now those cities stuck in a growth/starvation cycle can starve for twice as long! And since at the point you can build the wonder, jsut about every city is either in equilibrium or in that cycle... Kiss those WLTKD's goodbye.

	11-11-2001 06:05									#4
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Is an additional age. That way things like the cure for cancer culture can be more useful. perhaps even two more ages. If we had a WORKING EDITOR we could do it.

	11-11-2001 11:09									#5
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Good posts folks, I think Anunikoba may be in the process of addressing the UN issue at least in his mod. Let's wish him luck!

	11-11-2001 11:58									#6
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The UN is just the most awful winder... the diplomatic victory in this game is so pitiful I think they would of been better off omitting it... I've already edited the UN to give the effect of the Great Library and REMOVED the diplomatic victory.

The Longevity wonder has serious problems... if it were changed so that pop growth was 2 ONLY if the city will have enough food to support it, it would be ok.

As for the lighthouse, I changed it so it doesn't give the +1 move but does give an extra 50% tax (extra trade) and dosen't expire.

Also theroy of evolution seems to have a bug that if you don't have enough unreaserched tech available w/o progressing to the modern age, you don't get both (or any) techs.

Shakespear's Theater needs to be tweaked as well.

	11-11-2001 12:49									#7
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How about the Manhattan project.

Not only does it allow every other civ to build nukes, but the nukes themselves are rather on the weak side.

	11-11-2001 16:07									#8
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I disagree with your take on the Lighthouse and The Great Library.

The Lighthouse stays active for about half the game. It gives +1 to naval movement and allows Galleys to go on sea squares. This is very helpful if you are playing on continents and are trying to conquer the world early on. You don't have to wait for Galleons to start sending troops abroad.

The Great Library is also important. I don't even bother to research Philosophy or the Republic. But the AI's do, and then they trade them. Also, if you are rushing a lot of units under Monarchy, you are using up cash. To get cash, you reduce your science rate. In reducing the science rate, you can fall behind in discovering techs. The Great Library keeps you on the same level as the AI's. And you don't have to pay 200 gold for an advance.

Aside from that, the culture bonuses are worth the effort as well. If you stack every wonder in one city, you will get a culture victory in the modern age, guaranteed, even if you aren't trying for it. I was in the midst of finishing off the last Civ in a conquer the world game and I got a culture victory. I was mopping up little surviving cities which was taking forever, but by building the wonders early on, I clinched a culture victory late in the game.

	11-11-2001 18:06									#9
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With Civ II I missed the cultural benefits with wonders. I thought that a colossus for example is such a landmark and something that people would travel to see, like the Eiffel Tower is today. Still all benefits expire with flight and this wondrous probably a couple of thousands year old legacy of the ancient world isnīt worth s**t.

Now wonders also give culture, which is cool. Hence all wonders are cool!

P.S. The pyramids was a must have in Civ II but I donīt really see the value in Civ III?

	11-11-2001 21:39									#10
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The great library is my favorite wonder! Massive culture, and it can give you a ton of techs. If you manage to get this on the higher difficulty levels you = winner, use a great leader if you have to, it is VERY valuable.

Expires early but it will make up for it by then.

	11-11-2001 21:54									#11
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I don't think Shakespear's Theater is too awful. If you are going for a Cultural Victory, it's a great Wonder to have it for yourself and to deny it to your enemy.

	11-11-2001 22:39									#12
	Iron Works is hard to get Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Iron Works requires both coal and iron within the city radius of the same city. Tough to arrange because no one knows where the iron and coal are when cities are being settled. :/

	11-11-2001 23:35									#13
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What about the sorry ass Great Wall. It improves your city walls, which only work for city pop. 6 or less. Even then the wall gives 100% bonus, not outstanding.
And bonus against barbarians. Boo.

Enigma: How often do you get a great leader in time to rush the G. Library?

	11-11-2001 23:45									#14
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Good one half lotus, I was meaning to put that one on as well
The Great Wall is far too weak. It really needs to be able to do SOMETHING else. Plus it even expires!
mcaber- How ironic! I never found the pyramids useful in Civ 2, but I find them essential in Civ 3! I think that you are more able to cope with the rapid growth in Civ 3 than in Civ 2, or at least that is my initial impression.
Enigma/Soul Assassin- Okay you guys won me over, I was a little hesistant to put Great Library on the list of excessively weak wonders anyway, but you guys make a good case.

	12-11-2001 01:24									#15
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Top 6 Great Wonders
-Sistine Chapel
-Corpernicus' Observatory
-Bach's Cathedral
-Isaac Newton's University
-SETI Program
-Hoover Dam

Top 6 Minor Wonders
-Forbidden Palace
-Iron Works
-SDI
-Battlefield Medicine
-Intelligence Agency
-Wall Street

Your civ should have a production city (iron works. this is pure luck if you get it and a science city (put C's Observatory, N's university, SETI, and maybe collosus if you have the time.)

	12-11-2001 02:08									#16
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I don't feel like looking up the history, but was it necessary for the Colossus to be built on the ocean when it was built however many odd thousands of years ago? I mean, i can see how the Lighthouse would obviously have to be built on the ocean (a big fat DUH right there), but just because the Colossus was built at the mouth of Rhodes' harbor doesn't necessarily mean that's the only place it would convievably be built, does it? I honestly don't know the history of the Colossus, or the motives for building it, so if I am totally wrong I would appreciate someone telling me.

I only mention this because if you're going to build a SSC, it's now a great more difficult seeing as you have to either build it on a coast, or just not use the Colossus. Obviously if you start off dead center in the middle of a huge continent, the choice is simple, but otherwise...

	12-11-2001 07:55									#17
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art of war? free barracks? big deal. all my relevant cities already have barracks, and if you're playing a military civ (the sort that should most need this wonder) then it does even less.

Leonardo's and Smith's are both Ok, depending on what you are doing. I usually like upgrading large armies, so Leonardo's works. However, in non military games it sucks.

My fave is the Sistine Chapel, esp. if I'm playing a religious civ . Then you just plop a cathedral in a city for less than the cost of a library and get +6 contented citizens. velly nice. and great for culture.

Yeah, Great Wall is too weak, unless you're playing on the highest barbarian level, maybe.

and does Heroic Epic even work? I've never gotten a leader yet (i think) after building it.

	12-11-2001 08:46									#18
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I miss the effects of Adam Smiths Trading Co . It played a pretty big part in my civ2 strategy since I always prefer a peaceful, economic end to my games. It usually provided the basis for a successful future Democracy that had the capacity to support expensive improvements and still rake in the cash. I'm really glad they added in the Wall Street Minor Wonder because it makes up for Smith's losses. I also miss Handel's "Arrival of the queen of Sheba"...

	12-11-2001 12:28									#19
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The wonders I always build are, in no particular order:

Pyramids
JS Bach
Sun Tzu
Sistine Chapel

For a culture game, or when I have a very large science city, I'll also grab Shakespeare's Theatre and Newton's U.

Wonders that I really don't care for, also in no real order:

Hoover Dam (Hydro Plants suck)
Leonardo's Workshop (money's too easy to make)
Copernicus and SETI (Impossible to get 1 tech/turn now)
Great Wall
UN (I'm really starting to hate the Diplo victory)

	12-11-2001 18:49									#20
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My favorites, in no particular order:

Colossus (if I have a coastal city w/production enough to build it)
Copernicus'
Newton
Sistine
Bach
Hoover
Great Library
SETI

That being said, I will build any wonder if I can, if for no other reason than to deny the benifits/culture to the AI.

If you can get the Colossus, Cops, Newton, and eventually SETI together, great. Usually, however, I end up w/ Cops, Newton and SETI in my capital (minimal corruption, usually on a river).

Sistine Chapel and Bach are KEY for happiness. Great Library can be a real boon early on, filling in techs you've ignored.

Adam Smith's has been toned down, but then again it was pretty damn powerful in CIV2 (I would build it and then proceed to buy the AI empires). I still build it, of course.

Hoover is pretty obvious. Cure for Cancer is always nice, but a late-game add-on kinda nice. Universal Suffrage is certainly useful - I think I've built that one every time... but I try to keep my wars short anyway.

I've always disliked Manhattan, but if you don't build it, they probably will. The UN kinda sucks - but I build it, so I don't lose. I wouldn't mind having Sun Tzu or the Pyramids, but I'm usually building something else. The Great Wall? Whatever, take it. Leo's isn't worth it now, and the Great Lighthouse is only good in certain situations. Longevity just boosts your cities to untenable population so they starve.

-Arrian

	12-11-2001 18:51									#21
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Two of the most useful wonders in my current game are
- Magellan's Voyage
-Smith's Trading company

Magellans allows me to dominate the seas and catch up with enemy transports or let my wounded ships escape which is crucial since I own South and Central America as well as Australia.

Smith's Trading company allows me to avoid the maintenance cost of all my banks, harbors, airports, and marketplaces which lets me devote that money to tech and has allowed me to finally move ahead of the AI.

I'm playing at Regent level on the standard World Map with 8 civs

	12-11-2001 19:35									#22
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I have a question about UN as I see lots of people complaining about diplo victory. If you build the UN and become Sec-Gen, does this mean you can deny the vote for world leader indefinitely? Can someone override you and force a vote despite you being in possession of the wonder? What are the rules that govern this. The manual and Civpeadia are unclear.

I've only just now made it to modern era so I don't know. I built the UN and said no to the vote as I didn't think I was in good graces with other Civs that I'd been thrashing militarily. Can I always do this?

If you have the final say in when a vote can take place, than I would say UN is the most important wonder. In his chat, Soren also said this was the most important wonder. If you let the peaceful Civ that everyone loves more than you build it and they go to a vote, than it's likely lights out for you no matter how dominant you are. If you own it and have no chance at diplo victory you can just delay it forever if you're always allowed to deny a vote. That's HUGE and makes the control of UN pretty essential with diplo victory turned on.

e

	12-11-2001 21:52									#23
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Heroic Epic - is it worth it?
You have to use up a leader to build an army and win a battle before you can build this. But then, you should get more leaders later. Hmmm......

	12-11-2001 22:35									#24
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I'm plowing into the egyptians, after plowing through the romans and greeks. I have gotten two leaders, now, that might not be so bad, but it feels like they have become unrealistically needed (armies and wonders) and damn awful hard to get.

now I have the heroic epic, but I can't get my units to elite, the stubbornly remain in veteran mode, however many enemies the pound to dust.

	12-11-2001 23:34									#25
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I plan on creating a mod soon that alters the strengh of these wonders.
For starters, I am considering raising the culture Shakespeare's theatre gives you to 12.
What do you guys think?

	13-11-2001 00:00									#26
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I definitely prefer the Pyramids over the Great Library. You can always negociate most of the techs you don't have next to powerful AIs until you can keep up with them. On the other hand granaries are of course useful but without Pyramids can be time consuming to build in distant cities. If I miss Sistine Chapel, I go at all costs for Bach's even without a cultural game in mind.

I agree to say that most of the wonders are "wonderfully" calibrated, none of them are overly powerful to disturb the game's balancing, but they are still useful. Quite refreshing next to some overpowered SMAC's projects...

	13-11-2001 00:19									#27
	Put an end to popups!

eMarkM, when you build the UN you get a pop up window asking if you want to hold the vote now. If you say no it keeps popping up every turn. I don't know how long it waits if a vote is held and no one wins.

If you say yes, you get asked to vote for a person or abstain.

The one time I did this 4 voted for me, 2 for Joan. Then you get a "You Win" pop up window and the game is over.

I really felt it was flat and anticlimatic ... but then I never liked the space ship win either. I turned off diplomatic win after this.

	13-11-2001 01:00									#28
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quote: I really felt it was flat and anticlimactic

Just a pop up for diplo win? Does sound kinda anti-climatic. Eh, a wins a win, I guess. Certainly turning Diplo victory off is one way to go, but I like to play with the defaults and have that option open. I like the dimension it adds to play. Makes you think twice about how you treat other Civs with the thought of losing a future UN vote. If you played well enough to have the other Civs vote for you, that's an accomplishment, despite the cheesy ending.

If you have Diplo victory turned on, there's no question the UN is one of the most important wonders, if not THE most important. I mean, what other wonder, if built by someone else, will cause you to lose the whole game just like that?? Sheesh. No other wonder has this kind of power. You can't let it fall into AI Civs hands as the testimonials on this site can attest. They build it, they vote, you lose. You just gotta have the UN in order to filibuster on the vote if you know you'll get outvoted. Better have a Leader ready when you discover Fission to rush this one. It's a must have.

e

	13-11-2001 04:20									#29
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Diplomatic victory seems fairly unpopular amongst most civers, so another change I'm considering is adding Colossus trade bonus in my proposed mod.

	13-11-2001 07:40									#30
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Monkspider if you can do this try making the diplomatic victory like SMACs, each civ get votes in proportion to their entire population and whoever get 75% of the vote wins, If you lose or someone really hates you and you won they get to say they don't accept it.

You go to war with all the other civs combined into one but if you strong enough you might be able to beat em, it's better then just four votes for this guy three for you game over(happened to, pissed me off so I reloaded and didn't build the UN, proceded with WWI )