11-11-2001 19:18									#1
	What's the deal with Uncle Fester !?!? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Is Joan of Arc bald on the screenshot on the web page today?!?! WTF is up with that? I don't think Kojak led the French. Was this chick bald in real life? No wonder they burned her...

Oh, is there a way to change the names of the AI leaders permanently? Even though it looks like Firaxis backed off the Black Cleopatra, I'd still prefer to change the name to Nefertiti...

Venger

	11-11-2001 19:46									#3
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quote: Originally posted by Venger Is Joan of Arc bald on the screenshot on the web page today?!?! WTF is up with that? I don't think Kojak led the French. Was this chick bald in real life? No wonder they burned her... Oh, is there a way to change the names of the AI leaders permanently? Even though it looks like Firaxis backed off the Black Cleopatra, I'd still prefer to change the name to Nefertiti... Venger

In the medieval period she seems to have hair peeking out from her mail coif.

Actually, Hatshepsut would be a better choice if you actually have to have a female ruler of the Egyptians.

Cleopatra ruled the Egyptians, but was an ethnic Greek from a dynasty founded by one of Alexander The Great's generals (after ATG's empire went bust on his death & every general grabbed a chunk). Egypt had not been independent for centuries before that, and had been in decline for centuries before losing its idependence. Also, Cleopatra was totally dependent on Roman muscle - no Romans and she would have remained out of power after being ejected by the faction favoring her brother.

Nefertiri was a Queen, but her husband the Pharoah was the head guy. She did nothing but pose for a sculture which is now famous.

Hatshepsut ruled in her own name, with the title of Pharoah, at a time when Egypt was a superpower under native dynasties. Her reign was a golden age of peace, prosperity and foriegn trade. She achieved and maintained power through her own political skills in a male dominated society, not by seducing foriegn generals. When she died (of old age), the next Pharoah was her nephew Thutmose III (who hated her and tried to erase her memory) went on to become Egypt's greatest conquering ruler ("the Napoleon of Egypt").

	11-11-2001 19:55									#4
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I've seen much on Nefertiti - it is actually becoming more in vogue that she was at a minimum co-pharoah - there was some really wierd stuff going on at the time, religious wise. I should have payed more attention to that damn History Channel piece...

Besides - Nefertiti is easier to say than Hatshepsut (pronounced Het-shay-soo?)

Venger

	11-11-2001 20:02									#5
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I like that screenshot... Joan of Arc wasn,t a conventional girl anyway. She had boy's cut at middle ages. So this isn't that much impossible when modernizing her...

	11-11-2001 20:18									#6
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Once upon a time there was an american film with a gorgeous actress playing a recruit marine woman, with shaved hair etc. The woman's name in the film was Jane, which is Joan in French. Am I the only one who noticed this?

BTW, I like the "Armée" shirt it seems an "american" robe, casually written in French

	11-11-2001 21:59									#7
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Demi Moore in "GI Jane". Exactly what I thought at first. Quite funny really, seeing what a warmonger France is in this game.
I like it. But Demi was better with hair

	11-11-2001 22:14									#8
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Joan's a babe in most ages. Love diplomacy with her -she's always so polite too. Wish Queen E didn't look so pale and sickly.
Cleo's smile makes me nervous.

	11-11-2001 22:26									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Venger I've seen much on Nefertiti - it is actually becoming more in vogue that she was at a minimum co-pharoah - there was some really wierd stuff going on at the time, religious wise. I should have payed more attention to that damn History Channel piece... Besides - Nefertiti is easier to say than Hatshepsut (pronounced Het-shay-soo?) Venger

It when down like this. Nefertiti was the wife of Pharoah Amenophis IV. Amenophis IV was a religious heretic, who introduced a montheistic cult of a sun god named Aten and banned the old religion (and its priests). He changed his name to Akhenaten and moved the capital from Thebes to Tel El-Amarna. While his regime was engaged in religious revolution, he let the Empire go to h*ll in a handbasket. The famous Tel El-Amarna letters record the pleas of his governors & vasals in Egypts foriegn possessions for Pharoah to sent help against the encroachments of other empires. His reign was fairly short (17 years) and Nefertiti disappears from the record several years before it ended. After he died, the old priesthood reasserted itself and wiped out everything he did. The main reason Nefertiti is remembered is that Akhenaten also sponsored a brief revolution in Egyptian art, to portray things realistically rather than the formal & idealized traditional Egyptian style, and she was uncommonly beautiful (he, on the other hand, was pretty dufus-looking). In short, whatever role Nefertiti may have played in the Akhenaten regime, that regime was a failure during its time and left no lasting impact.

Hatshepsut, on the other hand, was a great success. In addition to wise rule of the country, she also sponsored (and sometimes personally led) successful military campaigns. Here is a link about her:

http://www.egyptvoyager.com/feature...tshepsut_01.htm

	11-11-2001 22:37									#10
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Thanks for the lesson (seriously)....

Realistically, though, (and I've said this before), Joan of Arc has no business being the national leader of the French. Plenty of other candidates WERE ACTUALLY LEADERS of the country, lived more than 20-odd years, etc. If you really need to have a female leader...well, I was going to recommend someone for another civ, but noone, tragically and tellingly, comes to mind. No reason to force the issue in contrast to history, though.

	11-11-2001 23:20									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Venger Is Joan of Arc bald on the screenshot on the web page today?!?! WTF is up with that? I don't think Kojak led the French. Was this chick bald in real life? No wonder they burned her... Oh, is there a way to change the names of the AI leaders permanently? Even though it looks like Firaxis backed off the Black Cleopatra, I'd still prefer to change the name to Nefertiti... Venger

I believe we have a name for this in Europe--"Hairism". Bigotry toward the follicularly challenged, pure and simple.

	11-11-2001 23:37									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Gaius Marius Realistically, though, (and I've said this before), Joan of Arc has no business being the national leader of the French. Plenty of other candidates WERE ACTUALLY LEADERS of the country, lived more than 20-odd years, etc. If you really need to have a female leader...well, I was going to recommend someone for another civ, but noone, tragically and tellingly, comes to mind. No reason to force the issue in contrast to history, though.

I agree about Joan - kind of like making Horatio Nelson the ruler of of Britain or Patton the leader of the Americans. I think a lot of the leaders were chosen to get a politically-correct male-female ratio. Similarly, I think some of the "civilizations" in the game were no such thing (would better have been on the list of barbarian tribes), and were included for pc-multiculteral reasons while more worthy candidates in other geographies were omitted. Of course, I think that's all fixable via modding (I hope you can substitute still bitmaps for the leader animations in the end, or it will be a bit of a problem since the number of folks who can do animated stuff is a lot smaller than the number who can size photos/portraits of historical leaders downloaded from the net).

Frankly, if one had to have another female ruler then they should have given India to Indira Gandhi and France to Napoleon or Charlemagne or somebody. Mahatma Gandhi didn't really rule the place, and may have proven ineffective had he survived to do so. Indira was in power for a very long time, so you can at least grant her that much.

	11-11-2001 23:57									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Barnacle Bill I think a lot of the leaders were chosen to get a politically-correct male-female ratio.

OR...maybe they chose her because...well...they thought it would make for a good leader? Or perhaps because she is strongly associated as being an important person in France's history?

Or is that too much of a "politically correct agenda"? lol! You remind me of columnists in newspapers who talk about a liberal elite taking over the planet.

Sorry, just a little aside there. Some ppl need to take things less seriously--not everything is an "agenda".

	12-11-2001 00:11									#14
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quote: Originally posted by David Murray OR...maybe they chose her because...well...they thought it would make for a good leader? Or perhaps because she is strongly associated as being an important person in France's history? Or is that too much of a "politically correct agenda"? lol! You remind me of columnists in newspapers who talk about a liberal elite taking over the planet. Sorry, just a little aside there. Some ppl need to take things less seriously--not everything is an "agenda".

I stand by what I wrote. Joan of Arc was never even ruler of France, much less the greatest ruler in French history. Catherine by no means qualifies as the greatest ruler in Russian History - Peter the Great, Lenin & Stalin all made bigger marks on history by far. I've already commented on Cleopatra. Frankly, the only female ruler in the game who is supportable is Elizabeth I of England. Just being "important" in history is not enough here. It needs to be someone who is supportable as the MOST important RULER of the country in question.

	12-11-2001 01:08									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Barnacle Bill I think a lot of the leaders were chosen to get a politically-correct male-female ratio. Similarly, I think some of the "civilizations" in the game were no such thing (would better have been on the list of barbarian tribes), and were included for pc-multiculteral reasons while more worthy candidates in other geographies were omitted.

Gotta love right-wingers and their "PC-conspiracy theories"

	12-11-2001 01:13									#16
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I could not believe my eyes when I first saw Joan in the modern age. She looked so cute in the industrial age in her blue uniform. What a disapointment in the modern age. Why couldn't they have put her in a cute little white navy suit or something.

	12-11-2001 01:51									#17
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider Gotta love right-wingers and their "PC-conspiracy theories"

Gotta love left-wingers and their "Ad hominem attacks"

	12-11-2001 02:10									#18
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Haha, I agree about Joan D'arc though.

Who didn't want Napoleon to be the leader of the French? Wouldn't negotiating with the little fella be more fun?

Having 1:1 male female ratio's is just good marketing sense.

	12-11-2001 05:09									#19
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quote: Originally posted by CygnusZ Haha, I agree about Joan D'arc though. Who didn't want Napoleon to be the leader of the French? Wouldn't negotiating with the little fella be more fun? Having 1:1 male female ratio's is just good marketing sense.

Charlemagne, Louis the XVII.

Either one. But I'm into that era of history more, so that's just me.

It's all good. Civ is about what ifs. Obviously the Zulu were not meant to dominate the world, but what if they did? What if history was different? Joan had as much potential as anyone.

	12-11-2001 05:34									#20
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I WANT JOE STALIN!

Also, come to think of it, Napoleon would kind of kick butt too. But, whenever you see him in the negotiation screen, he's too short so he's just peering over the bottom of the window

ER

	12-11-2001 05:36									#21
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If you guys missed it, the bald Joan D'Arc is a reference to GI Jane.

	12-11-2001 06:05									#22
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Homage. Fromage.

Andy: Catherine is a dog, though! They should have had her in leather in the modern age.

Bill: good stuff. Stick around. I agree with the PC stuff, but I don't think this stuff needs to follow such a strict non-PC, historic course. I mean, wives have to like this game for something.

	12-11-2001 07:07									#23
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Joan is still the most feminine and eye pleasing of them all .

	12-11-2001 19:00									#24
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Bill: good stuff. Stick around. I agree with the PC stuff, but I don't think this stuff needs to follow such a strict non-PC, historic course. I mean, wives have to like this game for something.

Well, let's put in the Scots & give them their choice of leaders:

Sean Connery
William Wallace (as portrayed by Mel Gibson)

	12-11-2001 19:49									#25
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quote: Originally posted by CygnusZ Haha, I agree about Joan D'arc though. Who didn't want Napoleon to be the leader of the French? Wouldn't negotiating with the little fella be more fun?

Yes, especially if all you could see was the top of his head and the big hat.

	12-11-2001 22:00									#26
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quote: Originally posted by CygnusZ Having 1:1 male female ratio's is just good marketing sense.

Good marketing sense was Civ II's option to have the leader be of either sex.

But besides that, is there really an equal number of men and women playing any computer game, let alone Civ III? The only people they would have offended by dropping some of the female leaders is people who are already hypersensitive over it.

	12-11-2001 22:54									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Styria Good marketing sense was Civ II's option to have the leader be of either sex.

It's not good marketing sense to ship with only half the leader gaphics done, though.

	12-11-2001 23:31									#28
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Who cares whether Joan is historically correct (or significant)? At least there's one leader who is pleasant to look at. Lincoln scares me.

	12-11-2001 23:38									#29
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He looks like an Amish dude :-P

But I like Americans all the way

	13-11-2001 00:29									#30
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quote: I WANT JOE STALIN!

Sorry to break this comic thread, but I'd just like to make a comment on the above, being Russian after all...

Making Stalin the leader of Russia would be like making Hitler the leader of Germany...historically accurate, but it makes dealing with that civ unpleasant and sort of ruins that civilization. Stalin killed over twenty million innocent Russians because of his paranoia (this is in one of the darker corners of history) and let twenty million more die in WWII...

...just a comment !

Also, for whoever who said Catherine is a bad leader...she was actually probably the second-greatest after Peter the Great, and the best female choice ...

- Me
(I like to bicker and correct others)