12-11-2001 10:49									#1
	I DON'T admire your culture Damnit! Tired of ads?

Culture rocks...but not when I've capured all but two of the enemy's cities, quelled all resistors, built up my own citizens in the captured city, built my own Forbidden Palace in an adjacent city, put TONs of money into cultural improvments in captured and adjacent citys, and STILL after hundreds of years with the enemy having only two pathetic cities neither of which are remotely close to the ones I captured hundreds of years ago, without civil disorder or any provocation, the city ADMIRES the culture and switches over. My guess is a culture rating from wayyyyy back is still being used to tabulate whether they revolt or not. If that's the case, Revolt should be based on current cultural output, and not from a long gone empire that has been crushed nearly to extinction. Otherwise, capturing cities will become a useless endeavor and I'll just have to raze everything to the ground. Real bummer.

	12-11-2001 10:52									#2
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I starve them down to a small pop. when they grow again they turn into nice obediant aztecs (that's me)

edit: I didn't see the part about you building up your citizens. How many did you have? what level are you playing?

	12-11-2001 10:56									#3
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident I starve them down to a small pop. when they grow again they turn into nice obediant aztecs (that's me) edit: I didn't see the part about you building up your citizens. How many did you have? what level are you playing?

I'm playing Regent, and the city in question was about a size 20 with more of my nationality than the other.
See...just hopeless...

	12-11-2001 11:33									#4
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Malthus is right... if you cap a diffent "group" then yours ex: european group captures asian group, NO MATTER WHAT you do, it always has a chance of revolting. This is idiotic, and HAS to be addressed in a patch.

	12-11-2001 11:37									#5
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I didn't realize this was the case. the manual (just kidding). but supposedly after a few generations there should be no threat of that. I'm not sure how that works though. As turns in later years have fewer years pass. so you can have 100 turns pass and only turn over 2 generations.

I guess it is asking too much to get an explanation for this. Eventually someone will do some testing to figure out all the variables. That won't be me though . That is a thing I loved at the civ2 boards.

	12-11-2001 11:43									#6
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I'm not going to disagree that it is a huge pain in the ass but it is certainly accurate. In recent years this is exactly the sort of thing that has been happening in Bosnia, Serbia, Basque seperatists in Spain, Georgia to name but a few. What worries me is that it does not seem to be preventable by having large garrison forces.

	12-11-2001 11:47									#7
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I'm having very little problem with that (only 1 case so far, and I have conquered over 15 cities). but I'm still in the lower levels. So I'm guessing difficulty level affects this.

	12-11-2001 12:49									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Grumbold I'm not going to disagree that it is a huge pain in the ass but it is certainly accurate. In recent years this is exactly the sort of thing that has been happening in Bosnia, Serbia, Basque seperatists in Spain, Georgia to name but a few. What worries me is that it does not seem to be preventable by having large garrison forces.

large garrison forces like in afghanistan and vietnam?

	12-11-2001 13:29									#9
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it is totally realistic.
the greek, serbs, arabs, polish.. countless countries as we know today were under the control of some other civ for several hundred years and they did not lose their nationality.
the germany hold paris for a couple of year and what happend? french kick their ass in the first oppotunity.

my suggestion to whoever complains about the issue; i issue any combination of the following three strategies to fight with the issue;
1. before capturing a city, i lower down the population by bombardment to at least 5-6. after capturing, i pump up the population to at least twice by bringing in workers from my homeland.
2. i raze down cities, found new ones at the same place and populate them with my workers. this is especially worthy considering the fact that most of the time captured cities have no significant improment at all.
3. if possible, destroying the whole civ is the best formula; suddenly resisters begin to behave as natives

	12-11-2001 13:31									#10
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quote: Originally posted by cort the germany hold paris for a couple of year and what happend?

um, french collaborated en masse

	12-11-2001 13:59									#11
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quote: Originally posted by cort the germans hold paris for a couple of years and what happend? french kick their ass in the first oppotunity.

Actually the French didn't kick ANYONE's ass in WWII, because they were so busy retreating, losing, and collaborating at every opportunity. (for the record, Germany kicked France's ass).

For some odd reason, the British and Americans liberated France since the French couldn't do it for themselves, and gave it back to the French.

A few years later, the French kick out the Americans...

...some gratitude!!!

	12-11-2001 14:07									#12
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i am not french by the way. i said it because it is an example no one can miss.
you are right of course; french buddies didnot kick german ass at all (some US maybe)

	12-11-2001 14:09									#13
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i look forward to playing this game multiplayer by the way.

it will be REAL fun to kick some ass

	12-11-2001 14:09									#14
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quote: Originally posted by LaRusso large garrison forces like in afghanistan and vietnam?

Which city did you have in mind?

Now if partizans were popping up in the countryside or improvements mysteriously getting blown up I would be delighted. When the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th Armoured Division and the 101st Airborne regiment are stationed in a city but disappear without trace I get pissy.

	12-11-2001 14:14									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Grumbold Which city did you have in mind? Now if partizans were popping up in the countryside or improvements mysteriously getting blown up I would be delighted. When the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th Armoured Division and the 101st Airborne regiment are stationed in a city but disappear without trace I get pissy.

operation tet comes to mind
i must admit it is sometimes annoying.
but for the sake of realism, does egypt have free granary in every city nowadays?

	12-11-2001 14:29									#16
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quote: Originally posted by LaRusso operation tet comes to mind

Which divisions were destroyed without trace by the civilian uprising?

quote: but for the sake of realism, does egypt have free granary in every city nowadays?

Ah, now you're trying to change the subject to WoW's. Lets keep this discussion focussed and start a whole different one if you want to talk about Wonders

	12-11-2001 15:25									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Grumbold Which divisions were destroyed without trace by the civilian uprising? Ah, now you're trying to change the subject to WoW's. Lets keep this discussion focussed and start a whole different one if you want to talk about Wonders

hm i have to agree that some culture aspect may be tweaked on. for instance, reallocation of the rest of the troops to the nearest city, or saying ;spend immediately 1000 cash on culture or they will go away' or something that does not make the switch so abrupt. i mentioned WOW because it is yet another completely unrealistic thing, yet people love it because it is 'so civ'

	12-11-2001 15:36									#18
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We're on the same wavelength now. I would like to see an advisor pop up saying

"City X is in full scale revolt against our culture. Our local commander reports that he has {totally inadequate / inadequate / adequate / more than ample} forces to contain the situation. Do we:

(0) Withdraw our troops peacefully to city Y?
(0) Attempt to suppress the revolt but withdraw if the fighting gets out of hand?
(0) Brutally repress the revolt by all available means (causes international incident)?"

The current approach just doesn't cut it for me. A bloodless coup where the city gets overtaken without damage and with the loss of all your troops. I would only accept that if the garrison was pitiful.

	12-11-2001 15:40									#19
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This hasnt' happened to me yet but I've only played on chieftan and warlord so far. It is something I worry about though when I see the another civs boarders approach close to one of my cities!! On the levels I've played at you can hold them off pretty easy by just building your culture buildings when you see the other guys borders grow.

	12-11-2001 15:42									#20
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1) withdrawal
2) fight it out and die like a man

basically anything that would not make razing beautiful cities to the ground such a viable option. but i do feel that culture mechanism is esentially good and just needs TINY tweeking. keep in mind that AI will otherwise hang on to those miniscule towns it built within your territory

	12-11-2001 18:54									#21
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What I've done in my games, esp overseas conquest where cities reverting back due to culture is a real issue, is to wipe out the other civ entirely if you can. No civ, no culture.

Of course, this isn't always possible. In that case at least try to do enough damage that their capitol isn't near the cities you've conquered. Proximity to its capitol is a big factor in reversion.

e

	12-11-2001 19:22									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Grumbold I would like to see an advisor pop up saying "City X is in full scale revolt against our culture. Our local commander reports that he has {totally inadequate / inadequate / adequate / more than ample} forces to contain the situation. The current approach just doesn't cut it for me. A bloodless coup where the city gets overtaken without damage and with the loss of all your troops. I would only accept that if the garrison was pitiful.

Yes, seems quite fair to me
Or at least the enemy city should lost a civilian pop point for every occupant unit garrison that disappear (that # or everything sounds balanced after some testing). Or the result can be calculated like a battle of occupants units against units force of nearest/equal type of same number of civil pop (just for battle result calculation, no real enemy units generated).

How about a city ruined and disappeared in fire during the revolt, if pop go to zero during the revolt?

	12-11-2001 20:02									#23
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I captured a small (pop 2-3) city from an opponent who had NO cities on the same continent and whose nearest city was at least 10 boxes away. Although their culture was superior to mine nationally, their nearest city had no culture to speak of and my city defected for no reason with crack troops inside!

I love the defection feature but I wish they would explain it to us in more detail. We really need designers notes for this otherwise excellent game.

	12-11-2001 21:31									#24
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it's obviously a deliberate design decision from Firaxis to force everyone to play by OCC rules.... miltaristic players will keep having their veteran units "swallowed" up by cities they have conquered, while peacenik homeboys don't even have to build offensive units.....

for the record, Civ 3.. NAH.

	12-11-2001 21:37									#25
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quote: Originally posted by VetteroX Malthus is right... if you cap a diffent "group" then yours ex: european group captures asian group, NO MATTER WHAT you do, it always has a chance of revolting. This is idiotic, and HAS to be addressed in a patch.

VetteroX, it's worse than that! I was Roman and the culture in question was Greek. We should be brothers as far as the AI is concerned. I agree, this should be addressed in the patch.

	12-11-2001 21:41									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Grumbold We're on the same wavelength now. I would like to see an advisor pop up saying "City X is in full scale revolt against our culture. Our local commander reports that he has {totally inadequate / inadequate / adequate / more than ample} forces to contain the situation. Do we: (0) Withdraw our troops peacefully to city Y? (0) Attempt to suppress the revolt but withdraw if the fighting gets out of hand? (0) Brutally repress the revolt by all available means (causes international incident)?" The current approach just doesn't cut it for me. A bloodless coup where the city gets overtaken without damage and with the loss of all your troops. I would only accept that if the garrison was pitiful.

nice.... I like, I like

	12-11-2001 21:50									#27
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This and the Corruption and the lousy combat are the most argued over.

My suggestion, if they defect, (with your elite army nonetheless) reload an earlier autosave, and churn up the luxury rate. it helps, mostly

	12-11-2001 21:59									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Grumbold We're on the same wavelength now. I would like to see an advisor pop up saying "City X is in full scale revolt against our culture. Our local commander reports that he has {totally inadequate / inadequate / adequate / more than ample} forces to contain the situation. Do we: (0) Withdraw our troops peacefully to city Y? (0) Attempt to suppress the revolt but withdraw if the fighting gets out of hand? (0) Brutally repress the revolt by all available means (causes international incident)?" The current approach just doesn't cut it for me. A bloodless coup where the city gets overtaken without damage and with the loss of all your troops. I would only accept that if the garrison was pitiful.

Hell, It can't be that hard. and it would feel oh so good if you could do something about it instead of just the "lost a city, though luck" you get.

what should happen on the latter checks.

what constitutes

quote: (0) Attempt to suppress the revolt but withdraw if the fighting gets out of hand?

	12-11-2001 22:04									#29
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I don't mind the citizens revolting or wanting to join the Egyptions, that's their perogative.... But my army of born-and-breed Greeks, Egyptian hating since the dawn of time, would not peacefully join them as well, more likely, they would execute the dissidents to make an example. I find it hard to believe that a bunch of townsfolk can take over all my tanks with out a fight.

	12-11-2001 22:24									#30
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: it's obviously a deliberate design decision from Firaxis to force everyone to play by OCC rules.... miltaristic players will keep having their veteran units "swallowed" up by cities they have conquered, while peacenik homeboys don't even have to build offensive units.....

I am a miltaristic player, almost always as the Romans, and been playing on Regent for the over a week now.

I have not had very much problem with city revolutions, perhaps six revolts of conqured cities in that time. My usual tactics involve the use of forced labor to keep the population low, and I maintain a garrison at LEAST equal to the population of the city. All six of my lost cities happened when the population grew to be larger than the garrison, so that is my own fault for not keeping a lid on those people.