13-11-2001 04:41									#31
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quote: Well I thought he said he was becoming more libertarian lately?

"American" libertarianism is generally considered a capitalist system, while rest of the world libertarianism (or anarchism) is generally considered a socialist system.

Technically speaking, I'm not a libertarian in the same sense that you, Wraith, and Berzerker are libertarians.

quote: Well there goes another nail in the coffin of my theory that its possible to be a Libertarian without being a Objectivist. I was so hoping to prove myself right.

*cough* Anarchists.

	13-11-2001 05:05									#32
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Welcome Libertarian

ConnorKimbro is also a Christian Libertarian...so was Jesus You're in good company...

	13-11-2001 05:08									#33
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Jesus was a socialist (the first one too! )

	13-11-2001 05:15									#34
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Jesus was a socialist (the first one too! )

Jesus never advocated theft, paiktis22.

quote: ConnorKimbro is also a Christian Libertarian

Connor is an atheist which to my understand goes had in hand with his philosophy of Objectivism.

	13-11-2001 05:17									#35
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Jesus never advocated theft, paiktis22.

Oh hoho

«The one who has two Hitones (you translate two garments of some kind) ) must give one to his fellow man» = Socialism

	13-11-2001 05:38									#36
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Apolyton Libertarian List: Wraith Berzerker David Floyd Lefty Scaevola Ramo (I think) Imran (I think) Who else, I'm not thinking well right now...

I'm a member of MD's Libertarian party. And a dues paying member of NORML! So I'm just in the party for the drugs.

What's Objectivism?

	13-11-2001 06:01									#37
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"Libertarian" is not my DL (which, by the way, stands for Double Login), but he almost could be; an awful lot of the personal stuff is the same or very close. And even though David left me off his list (you're forgiven, David; I don't post often enough to come instantly to anyone's mind), I'll take a back seat to no one here except Wraith and Berzerker in the strength and consistency of my libertarian beliefs.

	13-11-2001 06:06									#38
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quote: What's Objectivism?

It's a crazy ideology that purports an objective existence of reality, and assigns positive moral values to greed. For some odd reason, objectivists tend to be libertarians.

	13-11-2001 06:07									#39
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I consider myself a strong libertarian. Include me. Libertarian, are you one of us?

	13-11-2001 06:09									#40
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LOL, Infat I'm not gonna count you as a Libertarian until you agree with and support private ownership of guns

	13-11-2001 06:12									#41
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Rex, sorry I shoulda remembered you...you used to post all the time...

Bob, aren't you more of a rightwing conservative than a Libertarian? You support the Patriot Act, no?

	13-11-2001 06:19									#42
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Libertarian,

Weren't you run out of town? I know you have a few BBQ threads devoted to you....



<-----------------------SpaceGhostofArrakis

	13-11-2001 06:32									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo It's a crazy ideology that purports an objective existence of reality, and assigns positive moral values to greed. For some odd reason, objectivists tend to be libertarians.

It sounds more like objectivism is assholism. My view of libertarianism is that it's the individual's responsibility to be nice to everybody else, and that private charities are better than any public welfare system. If we could all just be nice to each other (and smoke phat blunts) the world would be a cool place to be in. I'm a Libertarian because I feel we can easily achieve this goal without the government telling us what to do. Jesus wasn't a socialist, he was a pothead .

	13-11-2001 06:53									#44
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I thought Jesus was a monarchist?

	13-11-2001 06:54									#45
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oh... my manners. Hi.. and welcome.

	13-11-2001 07:12									#46
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Paitkis22 -

quote: The one who has two Hitones (you translate two garments of some kind) ) must give one to his fellow man» = Socialism

Jesus didn't say, "hey you guys, let's form a government and forcibly take that guy's coat and give it to that other guy". Big difference between socialism and letting people decide for themselves if they want to be charitable. And when instructing his disciples, Jesus explained they were to travel the land visiting towns preaching the message, and to leave those who reject the message alone and visit the next town. Early Christians (pre-Constantine) lived in towns and did share belongings - voluntarily - but did not require or force others to do as they did.

Dinodoc -

quote: Connor is an atheist which to my understand goes had in hand with his philosophy of Objectivism

You must be confusing him with someone else, Connor was a student at Liberty U, Jerry Falwell's Christian university. And I'm not sure Connor is an "objectivist" either, just a libertarian.

Ramo -

quote: It's a crazy ideology that purports an objective existence of reality, and assigns positive moral values to greed. For some odd reason, objectivists tend to be libertarians

Not being an objectivist, I'm probably unqualified to characterize it, but I do understand that nature exists and that objectivism is about recognising what nature is telling us - observing reality. As for "greed" and morality, is it greed - immoral - for you to keep what you earn/own to provide for yourself and your family? I call that your highest priority in life...

	13-11-2001 07:44									#47
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Berz, Dino et al.,

You all need to get a better understanding of the turns and twists of Connor's life (army, college, faith, "promised" girls, etc.)

	13-11-2001 07:49									#48
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quote: but I do understand that nature exists

It's very probable, to the point of considering the opposite a waste of time, but by no means absolute. Nothing* has absolute certainty; everything* relies upon assumptions.

*These sentences are based on the rules of logic, and therefore rely upon assumptions themselves.

quote: As for "greed" and morality, is it greed - immoral - for you to keep what you earn/own to provide for yourself and your family? I call that your highest priority in life...

Ermm.. I am a socialist...

	13-11-2001 08:19									#49
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"I consider myself a strong libertarian"

Well, I consider you to be a boob.

Hey Libertarian! Nice to see a new face in the 'great debate' crowd...on the religious front I noticed that you don't like Creationism or Materialism...but that you do believe in some sort of Christianity? There are a few materialists here.

Giancarlo is a hard, strong atheist (i.e. not only do I not believe in God, but if you do you're a fool). KH I believe is a materialist...?

Some Apolytoners have reported a 'liberalization' of their religious views after a year or so (Imran going from Muslim to Deism)

There are also quite a few Catholics here. I don't know how religious the Israeli crowd is. There are some fairly mellow Protestants.

There are also some Evangelicals or 'hardcore' types...Lincoln, maybe Glonk or whatever he calls himself now...

There was a lunatic fringe Victor the Creationist, Civnation "Stone disobedient Children" et al.

Caligastia and someone else believe in a new age thing. Urantia?

A lot of us have the typical, Oprah, 'I'm spiritual not religious' thing going on.

As for me: I cannot believe in the literal truth of the Bible. It seems mostly nonsense to me. I am Agnostic as to the existence of some kind of a God, which means I await evidence to prove that there is or there is not such a being and I ain't seen it yet.
I do, somewhat embarrasingly, feel that there's just got to be some sort of Big Something....you know, Out There, some sort of mystical or magical element to existence, because I'm dissatisfied on an emotional level with the materialist explanations for some things like 'it is there because it is there' sounds just as circular as the theistic arguments. But I don't know really. I guess my personal spiritual beliefs are a profound admission of ignorance and yearning, but a refusal to believe in things which don't make sense to me.

	13-11-2001 09:22									#50
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Gee, I'm not on the list. Must be my (+Rolands) "Europe more laissez faire than US" tease .

Welcome, Libertarian. It's a fun place to be (aside from delfi.lt commentaries, where there are much more stupid idiots to bash than here ).

Ramo -

"It's a crazy ideology that purports an objective existence of reality, and assigns positive moral values to greed."

I think if the Objectivists called "greed" "rational self interest" thay'd have more supporters. But what can you do, put a egomaniac at the helm of what looked like a promising renaissance of Western thought.

	13-11-2001 09:30									#51
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Ramo, I'm still not sure I understand your problem with capitalism. Surely if you support freedom you support freedom to conduct business as well?

	13-11-2001 09:34									#52
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Saras, You are more laissez faire than Roland and more orthodox in views on microeconomics and corporate finance.

	13-11-2001 09:35									#53
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The "property is theft" argument, Dave. Silly notion, don't you think?

	13-11-2001 09:36									#54
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Very silly notion...try peddling communism on the people of Eastern Europe, see how well it works...coming from Lithuania you from example have seen it firsthand, no?

	13-11-2001 09:36									#55
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Some serious x-posting here guys

	13-11-2001 09:37									#56
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Oooh Dave, it works magic, just call it social-democracy

	13-11-2001 09:41									#57
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Yeah that's true...lol a rose by any other name, eh?

	13-11-2001 09:44									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Saras Some serious x-posting here guys

I "DanSed" (edited) my post...

	13-11-2001 09:44									#59
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Um.. what do you know of my beliefs, Saras? Did I ever say "property is theft?"

quote: Ramo, I'm still not sure I understand your problem with capitalism.

Capitalism leads to wealth disparities. Wealth disparities lead to authority in the private sector, as well as the public sector.

quote: Surely if you support freedom you support freedom to conduct business as well?

Right, I suprise free enterprise.

	13-11-2001 09:48									#60
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Ah but such wealth disparites and authority, as you put it, is simply economic equilibrium...it's to be expected when natural rights are respected, some people will inevitably be richer and "more powerful" so to speak, and as long as said power does not intrude on personal rights, then it's fine.