13-11-2001 05:24									#1
	I'm getting the impression this game is not a worthy successor to civ I and II Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

The following are not "actual arguments" according to Apolyton management:

1) fix all the bugs and
2) gameplay imbalances
3) no mp
4) air/naval units are pointless
5) governments are done crapilly
6) civ3edit cant make scenerios
7) there no historicle starting places on ma
8) only "in-house" testing
9) serious bugs -- like the airpower-SAM thing in particular
10) corruption bug and
11) air unit bugs
12) This single player version is really no better than a beta you pay for.

Markos, it's okay to admit that some decisions are personal.

	13-11-2001 05:30									#2
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

well, you copied other people's posts, but what the hell, i'll yell happily:

YIPPIE! finally a thread where the thread starter actually posts some arguments to begin the discussion!


carry on

	13-11-2001 05:39									#4
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

don't 9, 10, and 11 all fit under 1

	13-11-2001 05:42									#5
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Cougz don't 9, 10, and 11 all fit under 1

12 is a bigger number than 9

	13-11-2001 05:45									#6
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

A game with a tiny handful of miniscule, virtually unnoticeable bugs with MILLIONS, yes, MILLIONS of good points!
What a game!
What a time to be alive!

	13-11-2001 05:49									#7
	Increase Your PM Length

The point of the thread, for me at least, is that the other should not have been closed. Those interested in the points above please carry on (I have made my views all too clear already).

	13-11-2001 05:54									#8
	Support Apolyton

I'm with monkspider .

But, maybe not that strongly, perhaps.

	13-11-2001 10:37									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I agree that Civ3, IN IT'S CURRENT STATE, is not "worthy."

That's not to say that it could never be- there's LOTS of potential. I just hate being a beta tester, granted it still kinda fun...

Once ALL of the bugs are fixed (read: at least a year from now), this game will be magnificent.

	13-11-2001 10:57									#10
	Suffering from ads?

Well for me Civ 2 and SMAC ended up being somewhat frustrating with the crappy AI and the micromanagement. From the little I played of it Civ 3 is definitely a significant improvement over Civ 2.

What's frustrating about it is that they got some big things right like improving the combat AI but then screwed up on some of the easy but convenient features. For instance the manual is not nearly as good as SMAC and the lack of a tech poster is annoying.

Above all they have done much less than they could have done to reduce the tedium factor which ultimately soured me on both SMAC and Civ2. Not being able to move stacked units together is a chore. So is being forced to watch the AI move its units back and forth for ages.

I have returned the LE but I will wait for the patches before deciding whether to buy the regular version. Civ 3 can easily become a great game but only if Firaxis/Infrogames commit to a series of patches.

BTW we shouldn't foget the whole Brian Reynolds saga when judging the game. That must have cost Firaxis several months in terms of the disruption. Without that they might have finished the game by now without rushing it..

	13-11-2001 11:11									#11
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I'm getting sick of the blame Brian excuse. Firaxis said they would be able to carry on the project without him...so it's a little late for this spin. and anyway, who cares. I judgge them the same either way. Based on the game delivered...

	13-11-2001 11:14									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I hold out great hopes for the Expansion/'Gold Edition'

I will feel like a whore, but I WILL buy it

I have bought every single Civ game and expansion since Civ 1.

	13-11-2001 11:20									#13
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Me too, but I don't feel like a whore. A little naughty, perhaps.

	13-11-2001 11:29									#14
	Suffering from ads?

GP,
It's not so much a matter of "blame" or "excuse" so much as cause and effect. The departure of so many senior programmers almost certainly meant a loss of a few months. This needn't have mattered if Infrogames was prepared to delay the release by that much but they weren't. Both factors contributed to the rushed product.

Let's not forget that that the product even as it is is good enough for lots of people to enjoy. The first patch should clean the serious bugs like the air superiority problem and hopefully the later patches will clear some of the tedium issues and other general gameplay problems . The manual and tech tree deficiencies are already being compensated for by the community. So in a couple of months we could still have a very fine game.

	13-11-2001 11:57									#15
	Increase the size of your Attachments

That's a problem though.

With all due respect to Sid I don't think any consumers should pay to be a beta tester. I feel that Sid could have more backbones by standing up to Infogrames. If there's any designer out there who can stand up to the marketing department he's one of a handful - if not the only one.

Some of the "bugs" - such as corruption - may not be a bug but a design decision. You may not like the change, but that doesn't seem like a bug.

	13-11-2001 12:10									#16
	Tired of ads?

Attachment: wall-head.gif
This has been downloaded 1037 time(s).

	13-11-2001 12:28									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: 1) fix all the bugs and 2) gameplay imbalances 3) no mp 4) air/naval units are pointless 5) governments are done crapilly 6) civ3edit cant make scenerios 7) there no historicle starting places on ma 8) only "in-house" testing 9) serious bugs -- like the airpower-SAM thing in particular 10) corruption bug and 11) air unit bugs 12) This single player version is really no better than a beta you pay for.

You can sum up the problems like this:

1. fix the bugs (air / naval / 10000000 / etc.)
2. There are corruption problems. Some like it some don't. It appears to be not a bug but some feel like it is one.
3. Expand advisor screens (trade advisor ie)

Besides these CORE-game bugs we would like:
1. MP
2. Scenario tools (there are billions already, we just miss a few, though these few are important though)

Conclusion: The Core game is really good but has some (fatal) bugs that really need to be fixed. Because of the lack of MP and fatal-scenario editing tools some people feel like something is missing.

CyberShy

	13-11-2001 12:30									#18
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I want to like it. I really do. Everything I've heard about what is in seems very good but no scenarios is the killer. This was (IMO anyway) the best aspect of civ2. Civ3 without it is just ... wrong.

	13-11-2001 12:38									#19
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

ummm, n.c. i thought you returned the game, so why bother fixing what is 'broken'?
and then - you already started a thread like this. when are you opening the third whinefest?

	13-11-2001 12:40									#20
	Suffering from ads?

I'm of the opinion that they will release a ptach to fix the little bugs like, imbalances and the naval/iar units.
But I think the big ones like no scenario tools or MP will come in a year or so under a exspancion patch or a updated game. Either way they want our money and they have a plan to get it for as long as possable and as much as possable

	13-11-2001 13:40									#21
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I agree with (apparently) the majority here. Great potential, shoulda been left in the oven a little longer. Many improvements, some questionable decisions, and a few SERIOUS frustrations and bugs.

Is Civ3 worthy of the name? We'll see once the beta testing is done. Maybe (hopefully) future patches and expansions will settle these arguments.

	13-11-2001 13:54									#22
	Increase Your PM Length

Worthy? Definitely.
Several bugs need fixing. Air superiority/SAMs of course. The "sub attack" bug, also. Corruption needs some fine tuning. The UN should do more. MP. Five things and the game is fixed. There you go.

Niceities would include: a decent editor, decent world map, non-random starting locations. And so on. This would significantly improve the game.

	13-11-2001 13:59									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by LaRusso when are you opening the third whinefest?

Great a November Whinefest, and me just back from Munich last month. Now where did I put my Stein.

	13-11-2001 16:29									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Yeah NoClue returned the game so what does he care?

	13-11-2001 19:29									#25
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by CyberShy Conclusion: The Core game is really good but has some (fatal) bugs

There are no fatal bugs. I am enjoying the game immensely. The corruption can be addressed with the editor, the million-gold bug does not have to be taken advantage of, and the air defense bug is in the late game and has little effect by that point.

	13-11-2001 19:38									#26
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Ray K There are no fatal bugs.

The fatal bugs are where your units get killed by the enemy when you had an (un)reasonable expectation that they would kick AI butt

	13-11-2001 19:47									#27
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

with 'fatal' bug I mean: It really matters.
the interception bug is fatal to gameplay.

Still love the game very much though
Ray K, I remember we were fighting about corruption.....
I see you changed mind

	13-11-2001 20:05									#28
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by CyberShy with 'fatal' bug I mean: It really matters. the interception bug is fatal to gameplay. Still love the game very much though Ray K, I remember we were fighting about corruption..... I see you changed mind

No, I have raised the number of Optimal Cities in order to reduce corruption from 99% to 95%. what a joke!

Corruption is still a huge problem if you expect any productivity out of your captured cities. I just let them grow slowly and feed the war machine from my core cities.

It would probably be better to raze them instead.

I don't consider the 'interception' bug to be fatal because the game is still enjoyable despite it. Still, it is a bug and needs to be fixed.

I would also hope they find a way to build Heroic Epic would building a useless army. As it is, it's the most worthless wonder in the game.

	13-11-2001 20:20									#29
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

next game play an economic civ.
I'm playing English right now, not much problems with corruption.

	13-11-2001 20:45									#30
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by CyberShy next game play an economic civ. I'm playing English right now, not much problems with corruption.

last time I checked, the Greeks were a commercial civ.

It's because I'm playing a conquest game and hitting the max limit on cities.