13-11-2001 13:14									#1
	firaxians, could you please look into some modern era tweaks Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

1. UN vote has to be transparent-
now we do not know who forms a majority. there has to be some indication (percentage of votes) - or is it just a simple majority of civs?

2. modern era tech rates -
i feel that some tech are just too cheap (advanced flight) and make some units obsolete too quickly. actually ALL modern techs should be at least 30-50% more expensive so as to provide for a bigger tech challenge. this way, they are researched in 5 turns, intensively traded and tech tree is over too quickly...(i am playing regent level). this will allow some serous plant and production buildup and give way for more devastating wars in the endgame

3. spaceship should be more expensive-
i finished mine in 10-15 years. civ2 spaceship was a big thing to produce, so i feel that this one should also be a big harder, giving you enough time to launch a desperate war in order to prevent it being constructed. this way, quick tech tree climb through modern ages results in a spaceship blitz

4. general comment - we should be able to see our diplo reputation, and that of the others. as it is now, we just know (based on our foreign advisor's comments) that homo homini lupus est. also, some indication as to the level of war weariness (say level 1 - 5) would be nice

i am not referring here to the bugs already adressed. i just feel that these tweaks might provide a better game, especially endgame. others, please let me know if your engame observations are similar. cheers!

	13-11-2001 13:17									#2
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Some good ideas

	13-11-2001 14:02									#3
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Great list, LaRusso.

I particularly like #4, can't stress more on the importance of it and it is one area which Civ III has taken a step backward from Civ II. Maybe two steps backward.

Feedback for player is extremely important. You can abstract everything from city management to trades. But not information. On information, we have to take it as much and as detailed as possible. From this we base our decision.

	13-11-2001 14:07									#4
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thanx. i think we should ignore whining going on here and concentrate at making some useful suggestions for patch no 2 (since i am sure that patch no 1 will be bugs only and those things that firaxians already noticed after going gold).

just one add:

-culture takeover: as suggested earlier by grumbold, there should be SOME consolation in losing the city to foreign culture - short battle (resulting in some loss of population and loss of city) or an option for peaceful withdrawal of the troops still loyal to our glorious kingdom in the case you have more units (say some MAY desert but some may remain loyal). i love culture but i feel bad about razing size 10 cities with world wonders EVERY time. i would not raze them if i had the chance to withdraw those 5 cavalry troops.

	13-11-2001 14:09									#5
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Good points. Information is everything.

	13-11-2001 14:19									#6
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I would like to see cultural city captured handled differently as well. In fact I would like to see it stop altogether in the industrial and modern eras.. Modern mexican cities dont become american, people just migrate. A small population loss (gained by higher culture civ) would be more realistic in the later game.

Editor flagging of specific units as destroyable via bombardment For those who want to blow up ships or other units with airplanes.

More advanced UN options similar to planetary council in SMAC. Sanctions, war, pollution controls, etc.

Slower late game tech tree, yes. Should be harder.

Editor option to include civ II style 50% combat bonus to units from a more advanced era.

	13-11-2001 14:23									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Ancientfool I would like to see cultural city captured handled differently as well. In fact I would like to see it stop altogether in the industrial and modern eras.. Modern mexican cities dont become american, people just migrate. A small population loss (gained by higher culture civ) would be more realistic in the later game. Editor flagging of specific units as destroyable via bombardment For those who want to blow up ships or other units with airplanes. More advanced UN options similar to planetary council in SMAC. Sanctions, war, pollution controls, etc. Slower late game tech tree, yes. Should be harder. Editor option to include civ II style 50% combat bonus to units from a more advanced era.

1) that would allow a rollover later. cultural resistance importance grows exponentionally with the destructive power of units...
2) editor choices...i must admit i am not interested that much
3) would be cool
4) civ2 combat....i really dunno why... combat works fine now. that kind of tweak would again present a civ2 mopup strategy....

	13-11-2001 14:45									#8
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I agree with all but the one about space ships.
And that's just because I haven't build any space ship yet thus I can't know

	13-11-2001 15:11									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Ancientfool I would like to see cultural city captured handled differently as well. In fact I would like to see it stop altogether in the industrial and modern eras.. Modern mexican cities dont become american, people just migrate. A small population loss (gained by higher culture civ) would be more realistic in the later game.

A most excellent idea. I was thinking that as the game hit the modern age the chance of a Cultural defection should be reduced. The whole idea of a city changing allegiance because they admire another Civilisations old church is a bit far fetched. I propose that instead of admiring culture in the late game other Civs would admire your advanced technology.
Just imagine 1900 London crawling with old temples, churches and cathedrals and not a working toilet in sight. I would admire French sanitation and be off like a Plague rat down a victorian drainpipe.
Paris here I come, Nice plumbing.

	13-11-2001 15:13									#10
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quote: Originally posted by MisterMuppet I propose that instead of admiring culture in the late game other Civs would admire your advanced technology.

well, the highest tech civ is probably the biggest civ by then. would not it have a snowball effect?

	13-11-2001 15:32									#11
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quote: Originally posted by LaRusso well, the highest tech civ is probably the biggest civ by then. would not it have a snowball effect?

Would it not also be the highest culture civ, lots of cities all with temples, etc.
It would probably be a nightmare to balance anyway. Good job I am not a games developer, back to the day job. Well when I say job I mean surfing the internet at work.

	13-11-2001 18:57									#12
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quote: Originally posted by MisterMuppet Would it not also be the highest culture civ, lots of cities all with temples, etc. It would probably be a nightmare to balance anyway. Good job I am not a games developer, back to the day job. Well when I say job I mean surfing the internet at work.

not necessarily. might be the one who decided to build every temple possible and has some cool ancient wonders

	13-11-2001 20:14									#13
	Culture and cities Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Cities reverting back due to culture is a perfectly legitimate and highly realistic thing to happen. Want some examples?

Look at most of Britain's once glorious empire. America split off, India (Britain's most prized possession) reverted to Indian rulership and culture after WW II; similarly Egypt, and, more recently, South Africa. There are many other examples. Almost all the old European colonies captured during the 17th through to the 20th century have reverted back to their original owners, most of them peacefully.

I agree, however, that you should have the option to be able to withdraw all your troops peacefully from a city that is choosing to revert back to it's own culture. Of course, if that option fails, a violent uprising should result in a relatively smally population loss (maybe 1 point for every three units garrisoned) should occur.

The situation where this would _not_ occur, is when the cities are formed by that culture, hence myself down in Australia.

	13-11-2001 20:24									#14
	Preach on brother LaRusso... Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by LaRusso 2. modern era tech rates - i feel that some tech are just too cheap (advanced flight) and make some units obsolete too quickly. actually ALL modern techs should be at least 30-50% more expensive so as to provide for a bigger tech challenge. this way, they are researched in 5 turns, intensively traded and tech tree is over too quickly...(i am playing regent level). this will allow some serous plant and production buildup and give way for more devastating wars in the endgame

ARRRGGHH!!!! The tech avalanche is STILL there? Did anyone making Civ3 actually play Civ2? The late Civ2 games always had a tech avalanche as you discovered a tech every freaking 3 turns (or less!). That's so dull...this MUST be fixed to make the late game playable...

Alas, I'm still in 1650 in my FIRST game...so have yet to see how bad it is...

quote: 4. general comment - we should be able to see our diplo reputation, and that of the others. as it is now, we just know (based on our foreign advisor's comments) that homo homini lupus est. also, some indication as to the level of war weariness (say level 1 - 5) would be nice

ARRRRGGHH!!!! So there isn't a way to tell your war wearniess level (I had been asking). Did anyone making Civ3 actually play Civ2? Because the lack of your diplomatic status is egregiously left out, as you mention. At least you could see in Civ2 the effect of "war weariness" with the unhappy people caused by your military units being out of the city.

This goes to a bigger ***** of mine, the availability of information to the player. In this type of game, war weariness and diplomatic status are two of the whole slew of pieces of information that is crucial in this type of encompassing game. In terms of this, it's a real step back from Civ2.

Venger

	13-11-2001 20:28									#15
	Re: Preach on brother LaRusso... Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Venger ARRRGGHH!!!! The tech avalanche is STILL there? Did anyone making Civ3 actually play Civ2? The late Civ2 games always had a tech avalanche as you discovered a tech every freaking 3 turns (or less!). That's so dull...this MUST be fixed to make the late game playable... Alas, I'm still in 1650 in my FIRST game...so have yet to see how bad it is... ARRRRGGHH!!!! So there isn't a way to tell your war wearniess level (I had been asking). Did anyone making Civ3 actually play Civ2? Because the lack of your diplomatic status is egregiously left out, as you mention. At least you could see in Civ2 the effect of "war weariness" with the unhappy people caused by your military units being out of the city. This goes to a bigger ***** of mine, the availability of information to the player. In this type of game, war weariness and diplomatic status are two of the whole slew of pieces of information that is crucial in this type of encompassing game. In terms of this, it's a real step back from Civ2. Venger

tech avalanche is not as bad as it was in civ2 so you actually do wait a bit to get something...but it could be slowed down even more

well, as for war weariness, you see the results but you are not really certain if it can be any worse

	14-11-2001 13:46									#16
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bump (sorry)

	14-11-2001 18:29									#17
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Yeah many game concepts are unquantified in the game. War weariness for example is in a mist of mystery until it hits ya. Some things can just be found out (like the sudden increased value of certain luxuries after cities grow), but it wouldn't harm to have them documented somewhere for reference.

Or the likelihood of city reversal. Or the chances of your boat sinking in rough waters etc etc.

	14-11-2001 18:40									#18
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Anyone else disappointed with the UN?

You click that button and bang, you either win or lose right there a lot of the times. A few suggestions:

o Default choice for election should be "No". To easy to hit OK by accident and enter into a losing vote which loses the game and you have to restart from an earlier save.

o Foreign advisor should give you some stats on what he thinks the vote will be before asking you if you want to go ahead and have the election.

o How about changing the victory conditions, so that a Civ has to be elected and "stay in office" for a period of time before actually getting credited with the victory? Just an idea. Don't know if it makes 100% sense.

I have no idea how they will make dip victory work in a MP game. Why would anyone vote for anyone but themself?

	15-11-2001 06:30									#19
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quote: Originally posted by LaRusso i think we should ignore whining going on here and concentrate at making some useful suggestions

I get it! There are 3 categories of comments: a) praise, b) LaRusso's critiques and c) whining. Thanks for clearing that up!

	15-11-2001 07:03									#20
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quote: Originally posted by n.c. I get it! There are 3 categories of comments: a) praise, b) LaRusso's critiques and c) whining. Thanks for clearing that up!

d) immature personal attacks

Zap

	15-11-2001 07:18									#21
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quote: Originally posted by MisterMuppet Just imagine 1900 London crawling with old temples, churches and cathedrals and not a working toilet in sight. I would admire French sanitation and be off like a Plague rat down a victorian drainpipe. Paris here I come, Nice plumbing.

I just want to say, NICE SIMILE!!!

	15-11-2001 07:26									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Peterk Anyone else disappointed with the UN? I have no idea how they will make dip victory work in a MP game. Why would anyone vote for anyone but themself?

Not everyone can become the UN Secretary-General. Of all the games I've played, it's only the top two civs who can be elected.

	15-11-2001 07:27									#23
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quote: Originally posted by zapperio d) immature personal attacks

Responding in kind. (When you don't know the context it's hard to jump in.)

	15-11-2001 07:29									#24
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No, I've been watching you nc and I just jumped at the opportunity to make a point.
I've got my eye on you, beware.

Zap

	15-11-2001 07:42									#25
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quote: At least you could see in Civ2 the effect of "war weariness" with the unhappy people caused by your military units being out of the city

You still can, to a certain extent. Left-click on your unhappy people and a box pops up with the reason for the unhappiness - "It's just too crowded" and "Stop your aggression against the motherland" seem to be the favourites...

	15-11-2001 07:54									#26
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Well, your point that you will only rebuke those who respond to personal attacks is lost on me.

	15-11-2001 08:10									#27
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quote: Originally posted by BigNick You still can, to a certain extent. Left-click on your unhappy people and a box pops up with the reason for the unhappiness - "It's just too crowded" and "Stop your aggression against the motherland" seem to be the favourites...

Yeah, but who has the time to go through every city and check each unhappy citizen's reason for their unhapiness.

but there are some good points in this thread:
there should DEFINATELY be a way to check your rep. (even civ2 had this, c'mon firaxis!), and war weariness is a big problem when you cant tell, all of a sudden my empire falls into anarchy and i have to start a new game - such bs.

	15-11-2001 08:19									#28
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quote: there should DEFINATELY be a way to check your rep. (even civ2 had this, c'mon firaxis!), and war weariness is a big problem when you cant tell, all of a sudden my empire falls into anarchy and i have to start a new game

Actually, the thing I really hate is how easy it is for your cities to fall into Civil Disorder and for you not to notice.

I liked the way it used to stop the game to tell you:
- When your cities were in Civil Disorder
- When you'd completed a military unit
- When pollution happened
- etc.

I mean, at least you knew about it... Sheesh.

	15-11-2001 08:25									#29
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Aren't the smoking cities dead giveaways???

	15-11-2001 09:20									#30
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quote: Originally posted by BigNick Actually, the thing I really hate is how easy it is for your cities to fall into Civil Disorder and for you not to notice. I liked the way it used to stop the game to tell you: - When your cities were in Civil Disorder - When you'd completed a military unit - When pollution happened - etc.

Yeah, hopefully the patch will give you an option to zoom to city when there is a civil disorder.