06-01-2001 21:08									#1
	Creating topedos; possible? Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I am currently toying w/the idea of putting together a 1942 Solomons Campaign scenario. Trying to retain verisimilitude and add a little something extra, I thought about creating topedos. The Long Lance torpedo, used by the Japanese Navy, especiallly its destroyers, was a potent weapon. Moreover, it signally outshined the American torpedos. It was more dependable, more accurate, and carried more explosive. The Nihon Khagun was deadly w/those things. U. S. warships were sunk right and left in the early sea-fights off Guadalcanal, which is now called Iron-bottom sound. But we all know this.

But how do you make a torpedo for Civ2?

Of course, torpedos would be like missiles--1 shot, high attack value units. Who carries them and how? Destroyers can be given missile holds, but then the torpedos would have to be air units, and the destroyers would have to be given submarine advantages. You could make the torpedo an air unit w/submarine powers & a 1-square (or 2, or 3) range. But if the torpedo is an air unit, it might lodge on a carrier and we don't want that to happen. Giving the topedo sub capabilities would prevent the things moving over land and blowing things up. But this is all further complicated by the fact that submarines must also be in the unit-mix. And if you give the destroyers sub-powers, what do you give the subs? The sound problem could be addressed by making the actual submarine units use the last, user-optional spaces in the unit-mix and assigning the subs special sounds there (if that would work). And would airplanes be able to land on destroyers? Anyone else ever thought about this?

Wrestling w/creation,
exile

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Lost in America
"a freaking mastermind." --Stefu
"or a very good liar." --Stefu

	06-01-2001 23:03									#2
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That's the only way I could think of. And since it's the Solomons you will probably be using air units. But carriers could carry torpedoes signifying torpedo bombers.

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	06-01-2001 23:22									#3
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Here's another question; will the " X attack near 'wherever'" appear every time a torpedo is fired? That could get annoying. Torpedo bombers would be done the same way; air units w/sub capabilities, but w/ample range. I am trying to determine if the range of the torpedo-air unit could be a pivotal factor. Zero (0) range won't work. A range of 1 means that the target would have to be adjacent to the "launching" unit for an attack. Humans could play this, but could an AI? Making the range 2 or 3, depending on the scale of the map, seems more workable, but would the AI have any clue about how to use these new weapons? AIs seem to love cruise missles fired at ships--the larger the better. But would the AI use them w/a 3 range? And would it load them onto destroyers? Not sure if it's practical to create a scenario for non-AIs only.

Wrestling w/yatatatata,
Exile


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Lost in America
"a freaking mastermind." --Stefu
"or a very good liar." --Stefu
[This message has been edited by Exile (edited January 06, 2001).]

	07-01-2001 05:53									#4
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I thought of something else. COuld it be a possibility to use domain 3?

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Save the whales, collect the whole set!!

If Al Gore invented the Internet, then I invented the spell check- Dan Quayle

If someone doesn't agree with you, you haven't explained yourself well enough-Luther Ely Smith

	07-01-2001 06:02									#5
	Put an end to popups!

You know, Jcarkeys (what does that name stand for, anyway?), I've seen the class 3 unit tips over on the scenario league and even remember reading it. But I've completely forgotten it by now.

I'll go over and take a look to see if that type of unit might work.

Thanks,
exile

ps; did I send you a beta of MODERN AGE? If so, (and you liked it,) the final version is now available on both the Spanish Civ2 and European Civ2 sites.

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Lost in America
"a freaking mastermind." --Stefu
"or a very good liar." --Stefu

	07-01-2001 23:40									#6
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Yes, you sent me the beta. I saw what you had to fix on this site so I didn't bother adding it together. Well, jcarkey is sort of like my name. When I was younger my friends and people like that contorted my name to Carkeys. When I did AOL Instant Messenger, carkeys was already taken, so I put my middle initial in front of it. And the reason why here on ACS I'm jcarkey is because I entered my e-mail wrong and then jcarkeys was taken, so I did the next best thing.

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Save the whales, collect the whole set!!

If Al Gore invented the Internet, then I invented the spell check- Dan Quayle

If someone doesn't agree with you, you haven't explained yourself well enough-Luther Ely Smith

	08-01-2001 00:26									#7
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Alas, the class 3 units type won't work either. Until I can find some other way to create torpedos, this project is on hold. Yeah, I saw the "car-keys" part of your handle and was just curious.

Ciao,
Exile

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Lost in America
"a freaking mastermind." --Stefu
"or a very good liar." --Stefu

	08-01-2001 05:50									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Most of Andrew Livings' WWII-era scenarios feature Torpedo Bombers, which have Submarine flags. I believe his "Europe 1939" is available here... if not, poke around a bit and you'll find the URL for his site (which I have forgotten, but I'm pretty sure it's at nbci.com)

	08-01-2001 10:37									#9
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Echopapa; making torpedo bombers is not a problem. I can manage that. I was just trying to think of a way to put a "torpedo" unit on board a destroyer and make it work. I am still thinking.

Thanks,
Exile

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Lost in America
"a freaking mastermind." --Stefu
"or a very good liar." --Stefu

	08-01-2001 12:01									#10
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I think if you want the destroyers to carry torpedos then you should give the destroyers submarine advantages/disadvantages. Then you could make all sea and air units able to spot subs. But then you can't have concealed subs any more. You will just have to reconcile with the fact that hiding from ships and carry missles only are inseperable attributes.

I also think you could still have cruise missles without the computer considering them missles. Then they couldn't board the destroyers.

The other way would be to make the destroyer able to carry air units and have no air units except the torpedo, but it sounds like you don't want that.

Another option would be to give the destroyer unit very high attack and increased movement and have that be a simulation of torpedo attacking ability.


[This message has been edited by Snog (edited January 08, 2001).]

	08-01-2001 12:28									#11
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No, they can move over any terrain just like regular air units, but they can only attack sea units though.

EDIT: heh heh, Snog edited his post, my answer is no longer relevant =)
[This message has been edited by CyberChrist (edited January 08, 2001).]

	08-01-2001 13:52									#12
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Well, Snog, you're correct in saying that I do want air units. The beauty of the Solomons Campaign, for Civ2 purposes, is that it was a war in three dimensions. There were land, sea, and air units involved, and all 3 had vital roles to play. Ideally, the unit-mix should contain; period air units for both sides, period ships of all the standard categories (perhaps breaking cruisers into light, heavy, and anti-aircraft), and nation-specific ground units. The Civ2 game can accomodate almost all of the action in this campaign very nicely--which makes it a good candidate for a small and short Civ2 scenario.

The hallmark of the Japanese surface fleet was its destroyers and the havoc they wrought on the American warships in the campaign. They did it w/the Long Lance torpedo. Sometimes, specific weapons can be truly decisive and, IMO, this weapon in this campaign qualifies. But how do you make it work in Civ2?

Ah, I suppose I should just put the thing together, see how the AI runs things, and try to adjust so as to get a satisfactory result. Anybody have a good map of the Solomon Islands and eastern New Guinea?

Wrestling etc.,
Exile

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Lost in America
"a freaking mastermind." --Stefu
"or a very good liar." --Stefu

	09-01-2001 03:22									#13
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Then have that type of destroyer specific. Like Japanese Long Lance destroyer. And have it have the upgraded attack.

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Save the whales, collect the whole set!!

If Al Gore invented the Internet, then I invented the spell check- Dan Quayle

If someone doesn't agree with you, you haven't explained yourself well enough-Luther Ely Smith

	09-01-2001 07:42									#14
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Yes, that's a very good idea and I'll probably just go ahead and use it. Now, where to locate graphics for Japanese destroyers?

Wrestling etc.,
Exile

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Lost in America
"a freaking mastermind." --Stefu
"or a very good liar." --Stefu