13-11-2001 23:39									#31
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I was considering going with my girlfriend, but I think sleep and sex are much more worthy pursuits.

	14-11-2001 00:22									#32
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I love these socialists and communists who are opposed to military action...they seem to stick up for the most right wing regimes that exists today. You communists are especially hypocritical. You aren't against elitism, you just want to be the elite. You aren't anti-violence, you are just against violence that isn't class-based. You have little concept of reality.

To anyone who is opposed to the military action: what would it take for military action to be justified? Would the terrorists have had to unleash a radiation bomb?

	14-11-2001 00:39									#33
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I hope there are hail storms.

Failing that I hope the police blockade them and force them all into the Serpentine.

quote: To anyone who is opposed to the military action: what would it take for military action to be justified? Would the terrorists have had to unleash a radiation bomb?

I am more interested in what viable, alternatives there were/are. Telling Osama he was wrong and imposing sanctions would have done **** all. Look at Iraq!

What viable and effective options were there to begin with.

I am against military action whenever an alternative is possible. But in this instance I see no alternative that would achieve the requisite aims.

	14-11-2001 01:35									#34
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I'm not sticking up for the Taleban, nor am I inherently opposed to military action. But when the U.S. and its running dog, Blair, are deliberately hurting civilians (both the British Lord Admiral and the Pentagon have admitted it), then I must be opposed. The deaths of 5,000 Americans can in no way justify the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent Afganis who cannot be reached by food convoys because the convoys are getting bombed, or are afraid of getting bombed.

If some *sshole were to kill Theben, it wouldn't be right for me to avenge myself by randomly tossing bombs into his house, hoping I get him and being blaisé about killing members of his family. I love how all these conservatives rail about the government killing Randy Weaver's family when he was hiding out in the woods, but are indifferent when that same government is killing innocent non-Americans.

Stefu, the Black Panthers were only partly a Marxist revolutionary group. Partly they were a macho posturing group, partly a drug gang (depending on the city). Chicago's BPP under Fred Hampton was a different creature than Oakland's BPP under Hewy Newton, which is probably why the cops assassinated one of them and not the other.

	14-11-2001 02:03									#35
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As Stefu says, I bet Stewie is going with a few of the girlies from Uni to show how 'sensitive' and 'caring' he is...

So if you oppose this war, what is your alternative?

PS I agree with Gibsie - though not necessarily the 'thinking of going part'

	14-11-2001 02:14									#36
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Hoek,

quote: ou aren't anti-violence, you are just against violence that isn't class-based.

I am against all violence that isn't in self-defence.

quote: To anyone who is opposed to the military action: what would it take for military action to be justified?

That the military action is likely to decrease future terrorism against the West.

I doubt very much the current "war" is going to do that at all.

quote: Would the terrorists have had to unleash a radiation bomb?

What is the terrorists were domestic ones? What then? Bomb North Carolina because the terrorist happens to reside there?

	14-11-2001 03:01									#37
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I think that's the difference there Infat. If the terrorists were in this country (ala McVeigh) we wouldn't HAVE to bomb anyone to get the terrorists. See what the deal is? The UN hasn't gotten Bin Laden even though he's a known terrorist. So what would happen now?

	14-11-2001 03:12									#38
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quote: Bomb North Carolina because the terrorist happens to reside there?

We may have to. It's been over a year and we still can't find that loony in the mountains....


Where was I?

Oh yeah, Commies are just as bad as other Mass-murderers. Oh wait, the other Mass-Murderers let you keep your stuff. Nevermind.

	14-11-2001 03:41									#39
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I wonder if attendance will be a little off with the latest news of Taliban collapse and jubilant Kabul citizens cheering the arrival of Alliance fighters? There's also talk of Khandahar being all but abandoned by the Taliban! How much of this could have happened without the US/British military action?

Ironically a rapid military victory could well mean a resumption of large-scale aid. In that case, fewer Afghans will starve this winter due to the campaign!

If the rout keeps up at this stunning pace, I'm wondering if protestors might feel a little silly chanting about a war that Afghan's are cheering and dancing about!

- mindseye

Last edited by mindseye on 14-11-2001 at 03:57

	14-11-2001 04:17									#40
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quote: I wonder if attendance will be a little off with the latest news of Taliban collapse and jubilant Kabul citizens cheering the arrival of Alliance fighters? There's also talk of Khandahar being all but abandoned by the Taliban! How much of this could have happened without the US/British military action? Ironically a rapid military victory could well mean a resumption of large-scale aid. In that case, fewer Afghans will starve this winter due to the campaign! If the rout keeps up at this stunning pace, I'm wondering if protestors might feel a little silly chanting about a war that Afghan's are cheering and dancing about!

You wonder whether Nookie would prefer the Taliban to still be in power and for the Afghan peoples to still be suffering under their brutal regime - as that's the only alternative he's given so far...

	14-11-2001 04:36									#41
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Nimmy - Before the bombing campaign started I would've agreed with you. Taking out the Taliban is a exercise in futility with the group of murders and rapists - the Northern Alliance ready to replace the Taliban, and a humanitarian crisis of enourmous proportions about to be inflamed. And yes, I don't think the Northern Alliance will be a significant improvement. And yes, the war will undoubtedly lead to the starvation of atrocious numbers of Afghanis.

But we've started the bombing campaign already; no one can take that back. The Taliban have further cracked down on Afghani liberties, making the problem far worse. The only hope for preventing the starvation of millions is to secure the area as soon as possible and get as many supplies as we can to Afghanistan.

	14-11-2001 05:09									#42
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Infat...you should sign up for the service. It would be good for you.

	14-11-2001 07:27									#43
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Heart is in the right place, brain (and c ock) are not.

My suspicion is that there are going to be some chicks at this demonstration and Infant is trying to impress them.

What a Player!

	14-11-2001 07:42									#44
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They may want to hurry up the war may be over before the 18th.

	14-11-2001 07:48									#45
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Just know your opinion don't count.

	14-11-2001 07:58									#46
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LOL!

No party in Europe could even be considered MODERATE by American standards, much less far-right! Nazis my ass....you people range from center-leftists (your radical rights like Haidler) to extreme leftist Eurocoms (your basic SocialDem government), at least by American standards, but certainly not Nazi or far right.

	14-11-2001 08:03									#47
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i second stefu's point:
you're doing it to meet the female persuasion. good luck with that (just the chick thing guys)..be careful, wear sun screen.

	14-11-2001 09:22									#48
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Actually Ill be the first to admit Ramo was right

Rumours are that Kabul has already been divided over ethnic sides (Uzbek, Tajik). Neither side are cooperating with each other.

So soon it could all be back to the civil war anyway =Insert Taliban replacement here=

	14-11-2001 09:23									#49
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara The humanitarian crisis has been exacerbated by the war. Before the war, 5 million people were at risk of starvation, but they were being fed. Now, 7.5 million are at risk of starvation, and their food supply is at risk as well.

I would laugh if it was a subject which could be even vaguely laughed about. Prior to even the hint of war, there were nowhere near enough food deliveries scheduled or aid funds available to adequately feed 5 million. Hell, there's major portions of the country where you had no chance of even delivering aid, and most of the country's population is rural and scattered in hundreds of small villages with next to no road access, or in some cases, no road access at all.

But yes, it's far better to leave the Taleban in place. We should give them back Kabul, Herat, and Mazar-e-Sharif and apologize for disturbing them.

mindseye and Mobius - don't get too optimistic about this "rout" war in Afghanistan has been a remarably fluid affair for centuries. Right now, the Taleban are being betrayed by people who sold out their predecessors, and so on, going back as far as you can go - Afghani tribal headmen are notorious for opportunistically shifting sides whenever they see the odds changing. So the Taleban are most likely trying to move into the hills, to their supply bases, and reorganize out of reach of the backstabbers of the month.

Those same tribal leaders would **** us, or any other Afghan government, in a heartbeat if they felt it suited their purposes. So now is when the tough part really begins.

	14-11-2001 09:31									#50
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BTW I agree with MTG.


Do any of you Humanitarians have the kind of money to feed 7.5 million people everyday? You continuely ***** and moan about the humanitarian crises but you fail to suggest even the simplest solution!

We've dropped 2.5 million rations packets at a cost of 350 million. Do the math... It cant be done. You just cant feed that much people a day.....the cost is simply to high.

We can help but we cant do much else than keep them breathing.

	14-11-2001 12:30									#51
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I just think they like have something to ***** about...especially if it's against US military forces. Mobius still has his panties in a bunch over that sub movie...

	14-11-2001 15:04									#52
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All,

I thought the war was a war against terrorism, not a war against the Taleban. Sure it's great seeing a country being made a little more free and democratic (I'll wait and see before I make decisions on what the NA will be like - MarkL already has shown stories about them raping and pillaging..); but the only link I see at the moment connected with Sept 11th is that Osama bin Laden lives in the hills of the country made a little more free.

Terrorism won't be reduced by replacing the Afghan government with one a more democratic. The current generation of terrorists are already in the US. The next generation are growing up hearing of/seeing bombs explode.

The US should be working to reduce the motivation these terrorists have to attack the West, rather than being gung-ho and marching around, chest out, "we'll take out every single one of you terrorists". Which is frankly impossible.

Derek,

quote: My suspicion is that there are going to be some chicks at this demonstration and Infant is trying to impress them.

Wasn't even at the back of my mind... I'm going as these events are usually hijacked by extremists, and I will be there as a moderate/centre-right, a normal person, and perhaps the media will be more interested in my view than that of some long-haired smelly pothead studying for an Arts degree.

Floyd,

quote: No party in Europe could even be considered MODERATE by American standards, much less far-right! Nazis my ass....you people range from center-leftists (your radical rights like Haidler) to extreme leftist Eurocoms

Drunk again David?

Faded Glory,

quote: Do any of you Humanitarians have the kind of money to feed 7.5 million people everyday? You continuely ***** and moan about the humanitarian crises but you fail to suggest even the simplest solution!

How about quitting giving aid to Israel? That should give you enough to more than feed the population of Afghanistan and have something left over.

GP,

quote: I just think they like have something to ***** about...especially if it's against US military forces. Mobius still has his panties in a bunch over that sub movie..

Not quite sure what you're doing up at this hour, but.... I don't like having to criticise the West's military operations, but if they are flawed then that is what I shall do.

Perhaps you could be a little more patriotic and stand up for your country's interests; this war is going against them.

	14-11-2001 18:50									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Infatuation That's right, in Hyde Park on 18th November there will be a mass demonstration against the war in Afghanistan, from 12pm onwards. Perhaps any Londoners would like to join us! I possibly may be able to get to a pub for a quick pint... While most there will be campaigning on behalf of the Afghan humanitarian crisis, I am also going there because I don't think this "war" will prevent terrorist attacks in the future. I think it will increase them.

Nah, Stew is going there because it is a cheap trip to London which gets him out of Sheepshaggersville for the day. He will disperse into the crowd, come out the other side and head for the nearest pub until just before the coach leaves, head back into the crowd and come out where all his 'comrades' are

Cynical bastard

	14-11-2001 20:21									#54
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David Floyd has obviously never heard of the Democratic Unionist Party.

	14-11-2001 21:16									#55
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Infat,

Understand your point of view. Don't agree. But understand it. My POV is the same as what I told you at FFZ. We are going after the sponsors of terrorists. If they had been Libyan sponsored, we would be there, etc. This sends a message to governments that host terrorists. BTW, Bin Ladin is a part of the Taleban power structure.

	14-11-2001 21:24									#56
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory We've dropped 2.5 million rations packets at a cost of 350 million. Do the math... It cant be done. You just cant feed that much people a day.....the cost is simply to high.

It costs a lot less to deliver food in bulk. The Christian groups, Red Cross/Crescent, etc. have been doing it for decades. It costs a heck of a lot more when you are flying the transports in from Germany and dropping them out the back of a plane.

	14-11-2001 22:16									#57
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GP,

quote: Understand your point of view. Don't agree. But understand it. My POV is the same as what I told you at FFZ. We are going after the sponsors of terrorists. If they had been Libyan sponsored, we would be there, etc. This sends a message to governments that host terrorists. BTW, Bin Ladin is a part of the Taleban power structure.

I'm just unsure whether going after these sponsors of terrorists is going to work in the long run. Sure, it might stop Osama bin Laden and pals financially supporting the actions of Islamic Jihad proponents; it's the knock-on effects on other groups I'm a little concerned about.

Saying that, after recent developments in Kabul, I'm wondering if the war will do some good, although not necessarily that which was the original objective.

Chegitz,

quote: It costs a lot less to deliver food in bulk. The Christian groups, Red Cross/Crescent, etc. have been doing it for decades. It costs a heck of a lot more when you are flying the transports in from Germany and dropping them out the back of a plane

Yep, and the economies of scale should be considered here. If 2.5m rations cost $350, then perhaps we can send another 2.5m rations for only another $50m.

	14-11-2001 23:33									#58
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Why do expect scale economies to apply to airdropped food? What would be the scale factor?

	14-11-2001 23:49									#59
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quote: Originally posted by GP Why do expect scale economies to apply to airdropped food? What would be the scale factor?

I have no idea; it's speculation (ie looking on the bright side).

But perhaps consider....we could send in larger planes. Food could be cheaper if we buy in greater bulk. Lower administration costs per unit. With each air drop, obviously there is a need for defence from fighter units, or whatever - with larger air drops, this defence won't need to be increased in size.

But OK you're the one with army experience so I might be talking bullshi'ite.

	15-11-2001 00:24									#60
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Try not to just spout things like "scale economy". Instead push your intuition to a higher level. I would say the major cost here is related to the air transport. And it's unlikely that scale will help here.

When looking at other examples do the same. If the major cost of a product is related to manufacturing. (chemicals for instance) And you form a bigger company by just combining several factories, how much scale effect will you have? (Oppposite example might be pharma company where manuf is small part of cost and sales/RD are large part. Here combining sales forces might give you substantial economies. Of course you have to check that the sales forces are not differentiated by therapuetic area. (I.e. can't cross-sell effectively).

Not a flame, but just some food for thought...