13-11-2001 20:26									#1
	Infatuation In London On Sunday To March Against The War Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

That's right, in Hyde Park on 18th November there will be a mass demonstration against the war in Afghanistan, from 12pm onwards.

Perhaps any Londoners would like to join us! I possibly may be able to get to a pub for a quick pint...

While most there will be campaigning on behalf of the Afghan humanitarian crisis, I am also going there because I don't think this "war" will prevent terrorist attacks in the future. I think it will increase them.

	13-11-2001 20:29									#3
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I saw a report about 600 people killed in Mazar-e-Sharif when it was taken. The war criminals Bush and Blair could predict it of course... I think it's time for Belgium to start a trial against them.

	13-11-2001 20:31									#4
	Support Apolyton

But the humanitarian crisis is now easier to deal with because of the war...

	13-11-2001 20:34									#5
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

A noble cause, perhaps. I'm not convinced either way.

However the march is under the auspices of the extreme left. I wouldn't touch this march with a bargepole however vehemently I believed in the cause.

It's the equivalent of going to a National Front march.

	13-11-2001 20:36									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

The humanitarian crisis has been exacerbated by the war. Before the war, 5 million people were at risk of starvation, but they were being fed. Now, 7.5 million are at risk of starvation, and their food supply is at risk as well.

	13-11-2001 20:37									#7
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by *End Is Forever* A noble cause, perhaps. I'm not convinced either way. However the march is under the auspices of the extreme left. I wouldn't touch this march with a bargepole however vehemently I believed in the cause. It's the equivalent of going to a National Front march.

EiF,

True, I'm expecting a very large left-wing turnout. I could possibly be the only right-winger there. The coach trip there could be interesting if people managed to find out my viewpoints. Am quite looking forward to it..

So what if it's a left-wing dominated march...I'm against the war so I'll march.

	13-11-2001 20:37									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Oh Christ, is the SWP still at it? They used to hijack every bloody cause going when I was a student

	13-11-2001 20:38									#9
	Got spare money?

Would you go to a British National Party or National Front march if it was for a cause you believed in?

I don't think so.

That's exactly the same.

	13-11-2001 20:38									#10
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by *End Is Forever* A noble cause, perhaps. I'm not convinced either way. However the march is under the auspices of the extreme left. I wouldn't touch this march with a bargepole however vehemently I believed in the cause. It's the equivalent of going to a National Front march.

Things like this are always "under the auspices of the extreme left." Because we're the only ones who will organize. If it was left up to liberals, we'd still be living in the 50s, politically. Liberals only come around later, after enough radicals have pushed the issue.

	13-11-2001 20:40									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by *End Is Forever* Would you go to a British National Party or National Front march if it was for a cause you believed in? I don't think so. That's exactly the same.

The BNP or NF don't tend to march on a single issue. (Most of their saner arguments tend to be overlooked).

No, exactly the same would be me joining a Communist Party march merely because they espoused one similar viewpoint to mine.

	13-11-2001 20:40									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Yeah, of course it is Seneca. Them and a bunch of even further left-wing morons.

The SWSS (their student branch) here in York is really active. They're all ****ers though.

Tomorrow night is a joint Tory/Lab/LibDem social... no-one invited the SWSS because we all think they're idiots.

	13-11-2001 20:42									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Seneca Oh Christ, is the SWP still at it? They used to hijack every bloody cause going when I was a student

Their American twig, the International Student (er, Socialist) Organization (which broke with them recently) is just as bad. However, the only way to stop them from taking complete control is to engage with them and provide an alternative pole of leadership.

	13-11-2001 20:42									#14
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Stew, by going to this march you are giving credibility to organisations that deserve none.

	13-11-2001 20:44									#15
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by *End Is Forever* Would you go to a British National Party or National Front march if it was for a cause you believed in?

BTW, f*ck you for equating me and my kind with Nazis.

	13-11-2001 20:46									#16
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by *End Is Forever* Stew, by going to this march you are giving credibility to organisations that deserve none.

Some would argue that by me attending, I am taking credibility away from it.

	13-11-2001 20:49									#17
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

So, Che, BNP and NF = Nazi
Then you think that EiF says Che = BN and NF = Nazi?

I think you're pushing it there. That's like me comparing a microwave to a toaster and the toaster saying it doesn't like being associated with radiation.

	13-11-2001 20:53									#18
	Suffering from ads?

Extreme left are extremists.

Extreme right are extremists.

It's a fair comparison I think.

If you classify yourself as "extreme left" I don't think you can be offended.

	13-11-2001 20:53									#19
	Got spare money?

What you have to realise is that leftist organisations generally work together. In Sweden, my party demonstrates together with people who they wouldn't normally touch with a barge pole, in order to get a broad, popular consensus on certain issues. This demonstration is led by the venerable and highly respectable Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament, but in an effort to get as wide support as possible they co-opearte with others who seek the same aim (stopping the war), among them the myriad of tiny Trotskyist organisations.

	13-11-2001 20:55									#20
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I think EiF has clouded the discussion here. I'm attending a SINGLE-ISSUE march. Lots of different groups will be attending for various reasons, like in Seattle. Right-wingers, left-wingers, nutheads wanting a scrap with police...

Granted, the vast majority will be left-wing but that doesn't make me a sympathiser with every other one of their causes. I'm just against the war.

Maybe the media will be interested in hearing from a normal person (me ) instead of a raving loony left why the war should be stopped.

	13-11-2001 20:56									#21
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Infatuation Some would argue that by me attending, I am taking credibility away from it.

He's got you there, EiF.

	13-11-2001 20:57									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

We always found that associating ourselves with a bunch of shouty weirdos tended to be detrimental to getting a popular consensus.

	13-11-2001 21:00									#23
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by *End Is Forever* Extreme left are extremists.

Are opposed to all racism, opposed to all sexism (though vesitages remain, being raised in a sexist world, pro-democracy generally (though that depends on the organization), and only some of us are violent.

quote: Extreme right are extremists.

Are white supremicists, sexists, anti-democratic, and violent.

We are completely opposed on all points. You pick a label applied to us by the ruling class and declare us equal. Do you keep your brain in a pickle jar?

And MacTbone, EiF did make the equation. I'm not pushing anything.

	13-11-2001 21:03									#24
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Are white supremicists, sexists, anti-democratic, and violent. We are completely opposed on all points.

They however do find common ground on two of those points, che. Both groups can be anti-democratic and violent. You shouldn't generalize so much. It can come back to bite you.

	13-11-2001 21:12									#25
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Marxism is not democratic. Almost all leftist marches do end in violence. You won't find a more sexist place than a "spit and sawdust" Working Men's Club.

But anyway... the fact that they aren't racist or sexist isn't what makes the extreme left extreme. And what's this "ruling class" bollocks anyway?

I have no time for extremism. I may have no time for far-left extremism for a different reason that I abhor far-right extremism, but that doesn't make the far-left any less extreme.

As far as this debate goes, I think Seneca has hit the nail on the head. The mere involvement of far-left groups *immediately* discredits the *entire* march. You might as well not bother.

	13-11-2001 21:14									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Because we're the only ones who will organize.

You mean, beside the Fundalmentalist Christians?

	13-11-2001 21:24									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by *End Is Forever* Marxism is not democratic. Almost all leftist marches do end in violence. You won't find a more sexist place than a "spit and sawdust" Working Men's Club.

Marxism is a theory and there are many democratic Marxists, just as there are many anti-democratic ones. And I've only ever been in one leftist march which ended in violence out of the dozens and dozens I've attended. Tellingly, it was non-Marxist anarchists who organised that one... I have to agree that standard Marxism lacks the feminist analysis necessary for a proper stance on Gender issues. Don't fool yourselves into thinking that it is a general feature of the left, nor that it means they will not fight for issues relevant to them. Leftist politics are the politics of identity groups, and the WMC people happen to belong to a suppressed one (the Working Class) and a dominant one (Men). Like the petit bourgeois, they tend to try to assert their dominance over those who are in fact supressed by them, in order to try to increase their own self-worth.

	13-11-2001 21:50									#28
	Re: Infatuation In London On Sunday To March Against The War Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Infatuation That's right, in Hyde Park on 18th November there will be a mass demonstration against the war in Afghanistan, from 12pm onwards. Perhaps any Londoners would like to join us! I possibly may be able to get to a pub for a quick pint... While most there will be campaigning on behalf of the Afghan humanitarian crisis, I am also going there because I don't think this "war" will prevent terrorist attacks in the future. I think it will increase them.

Why is this no surprise?


That's ok, you have the right, Big I.
Until Taliban and/or others take over Manchester.
Then I'll march in protest of coming to your aid.

	13-11-2001 22:02									#29
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Infatuation, don't try to fool us. You're only going there to buy pot and try to hit on some chicks. (What, aren't those the usual reasons people go on leftist marches?)

(Maybe righties should take note. Any extreme-right march would be substantially improved by pot and sex.)

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Are opposed to all racism,

Well, here in Europe, there's one particular form of racism that' generally accepted amongst certain circles of Left. But of course, saying that people of one nation are, as a rule, fat, stupid, uncivilized and warlike is okay as long as you make sure that nation is United States of America.

Also, I daresay that certain elements of former Black Panther Party weren't opposed to nearly *all* forms of racism. And circles of Russian Communist Party, both now and then, certainly bigot with the best of them.

quote: opposed to all sexism (though vesitages remain, being raised in a sexist world, pro-democracy generally (though that depends on the organization), and only some of us are violent. Are white supremicists, sexists, anti-democratic, and violent. We are completely opposed on all points. You pick a label applied to us by the ruling class and declare us equal. Do you keep your brain in a pickle jar? And MacTbone, EiF did make the equation. I'm not pushing anything.

I view the differences between extreme left and extreme right as differences between toxic sludge and bullcrap. Bullcrap isn't toxic sludge, toxic sludge is very different a substance from bullcrap, but I still wouldn't want to bathe in either of them.

(It is left as exercise of reader to decide which ideology is bullcrap and which is toxic sludge.)

	13-11-2001 22:02									#30
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara BTW, f*ck you for equating me and my kind with Nazis.

Now, now, The two of yah both fit into a jack-boot.....