14-11-2001 01:34									#1
	Who uses the espionage options? Enter the AD-FREE zone

I dont know about anyone else out there, but about the only espionage option that I find myself using is the investigate city one. Every so often I want to attack a Civ that is building a wonder at the same time I am, so I find the city where that wonder is being built and pow.

However, after finally planting an agent successfully, I blanched when I saw the prices associated with doing any of the missions. Sheesh I have never had that much money in my coffers, and at the most, I could barely perform a mid-level of success sabotage mission, if I spent everything I owned.

I dont know how difficult/expensive spying is in the real world, but if a nation had to empty its treasury to do some corporate espionage, I dont think anyone would steal anything.

Maybe I am doing something wrong??

	14-11-2001 01:37									#2
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I wanted to try propaganda, but by this time, the targets I want are running democracies and are thus immune to this.

	14-11-2001 01:38									#3
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I think thats the one area of the game i havent exploited yet
I tried using it one time but my spies just kept failing and after about 15 tries I decided to give it a rest. Yeah I was a democracy but you can't say our CIA are bafoons when it comes to spying And not to mention Britain and Germany's intelligence organizations...

	14-11-2001 01:40									#4
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I've used destroy production (or whatever its called) to keep a civ from building United Nations. Other than that, the options were just too expensive.

	14-11-2001 01:52									#5
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I use destroy production now and again. In the first game I played I tried using propaganda constantly, but everyone stayed Democratic throughout the whole game. Now in my second game (with all civs) I've successfully used propaganda to take an enemy city -- in this game the AI has actually been changing governments during drawn-out wars.

	14-11-2001 02:07									#6
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B-static,

If I may ask, what level of certainty did you select when you launched you mission?

On some occasions I have the mid-level costing 16,000 gold for steal Tech.

	14-11-2001 02:34									#7
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While I don't actively use the espionage options (and I do think they're too expensive) I *do* attempt to place spies in the other civs if possible (it seems that it's *much* easier to do so on your own continent, which seems reasonable). This gives me a very detailed breakdown on the opposition's military, and allows me to particpate in "arms races" very much before any hostilities commence.

In my current game, the Chinese have 43 (!) Ironclads and a few Frigates, while I have 15 Ironclads, 8 Battleships, and a couple Carriers (I have a tech edge in my first attempt at Regent level, large world, 8 civs). However, the only reason that i've built up my navy to such an extent when I am mainly a continental power is because when I placed my spy, I had a total of 4 Ironclads and a Galleon to his 20 Ironclads. It's been a heck of a lot of fun to get into a naval arms race much like the pre-WWI and pre-WWII ship buildups (the Chinese and I have never been at war, have been allies against the French, and don't even share a border, but they're my strategic rival, very interesting game so far).

Jbird

	14-11-2001 02:37									#8
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Yes! I forgot. Planting a spy gives their military numbers for all units on the military advisor screen. Very useful.

	14-11-2001 03:57									#9
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Some costs are ridiculous. If stealing a tech were more expensive than researching it, no one would steal a tech in the real world.

	14-11-2001 20:41									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Melloj B-static, If I may ask, what level of certainty did you select when you launched you mission? On some occasions I have the mid-level costing 16,000 gold for steal Tech.

I've never used the steal technology mission, one becuase it is so expensive and two because I'm normally the tech leader anyway.

Initiating propaganda doesn't have a certainly level selection, so it either works or doesn't.

If I use the sabatoge production mission I try to balance out the certainty with the cost, how close the production is to completion, and how important it is that I stop what they're producing.

	14-11-2001 20:50									#11
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Other than embassies and spies, it's way too expensive to risk them.

	14-11-2001 21:00									#12
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What's up with this... a fellow civ can get caught trying to sabotage my production, and I am not allowed to react. I get caught trying to expose his spy, and he declares war. Go figure.

	14-11-2001 21:17									#13
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For as much as it costs to steal a technology, you could either:

A. Research it for that amount of money. OR
B. Buy it off of them

	14-11-2001 22:11									#14
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Espionage must be completely improved. I only use it to spy cities.

	14-11-2001 23:05									#15
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> What's up with this... a fellow civ can get caught trying to
> sabotage my production, and I am not allowed to react. I get
> caught trying to expose his spy, and he declares war. Go figure.

Well, any espionage action can have severe consequences on reputation if they fail. The AI will not automatically declare war - I've gotten away with the failed attempt to expose a spy a few times.

I think the key is not to spy on anyone stronger than you who doesn't like you too much.

I also shy away from the espionage options because of the cost. Most of the time, it's just not worth it if I'm winning and have the money and if I'm losing and trying to catch up I'd have a hard time justifying most of those prices. 100gp + to examine a city? Examining the civ as a whole maybe, but one city???

I wish there was an option to just "activate" a spy (paying for the level and type (aggresive/cautious) of activation (sabotage/surveillance/propaganda)) and he could report/steal/demolish things from time to time on his own. It's a bit silly to have to pay for each and every dumb thing a spy does.

	14-11-2001 23:50									#16
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Espionage might be reasonable if the costs were divided by 10 or so. As it is, it looks like someone misplaced the decimal point.

Maybe some attention should be given to changing this ... it seems like changing the price calculation would be pretty fairly easy ... certainly easier than fixing the air superiority and such.

	14-11-2001 23:58									#17
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I've used it for propaganda on a city with a strategic resource I needed, wich was quicker than taking it over since the city was on the other side of the world.

	15-11-2001 01:10									#18
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Most (if not all) of the espionage costs are stupidly high. I can't believe someone at firaxis looked at those numbers and thought. . . "ehh, those numbers look good."


So, no I havn't used them yet.