14-11-2001 12:09									#31
	For those wondering just who is making Xbox games... Full PM-box? Change here!

a complete list of confirmed developers (there are others that haven't announced any titles yet, so are not published as confirmed developers). I bolded the more interesting names.

	14-11-2001 12:14									#32
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Moral Hazard Let me put it this way relating to tech. Jaguar was technically superior but it failed (poor marketing, as well) PS's technical superiority didn't help until companies abandoned SNES. Same thing goes.

...which is not valid in this case.
Microsoft's spending half a billion dollars on marketing (way more than Sony or Nintendo).
Microsoft also made the Xbox very, very easy to develop for, especially for all of the PC companies who are very used to making DirectX games for Windows.

quote: The rumours I cited were not from web sites but from game stores, I know their innacurate a never to be trusted, but people make thier decisions based on these. The bias appears to be toward the Game cube is all.

So why don't you just look at the gamestores yourself and see the real price? (They're already selling them)

quote: Concerning bundles they were all around $500 on Gamespot's gamebuyer. The only non-bundled ones were $400.

I think those non-bundled ones for $400 are just some companies taking advantage of the fools who rush out to buy the systems the day they come out or via preorder. I mean, the ones selling for MSRP ($299.99) are pre-ordered out until next year. Laws of supply and demand: Crank up the price and watch as you still sell all of your inventory.

I expect the price to normalize a few weeks after launch across the board.

Edit: And for comparison's sake, the standard price for Xbox games is $49.99, the exact same as the PS2's AND the Gamecube's. Check www.amazon.com if you don't believe me.

	14-11-2001 12:16									#33
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

as nice as the xbox and the gamecube are...

i prefer computer games.

in terms of consoles, i really don't like them, with one exception:

square.

i will go and support whichever system square does, because i like their games so much.

right now, it happens to be ps2.

thus: ps2.

	14-11-2001 12:31									#34
	Increase Your PM Length

The last 4, it's probably because they haven't come out yet. But they're all sequels to quite good RPGs- look up Star Ocean 2, Xenogears, Wild ARMs II, and Grandia II if you want. Grandia II especially, it's coming out on PC and is fantastic game.

FFX= Final Fantasy 10, and hopefully you've heard of that.

Devil May Cry you'll know about it you bother to keep moderately current with PS2 stuff, which I don't blame you for not doing... anyway it started out as Resident Evil 4 in production but turned into Castlevania 3D basically, with a great combat system and ultra-cheesy plot. Basically they realized that swords are cool, and guns are cool, so swords + guns + style = great.

Shenmue was a landmark title. Go read some slathering reviews. It's too short and a bit too easy, but it was extremely ambitious... one of the first games that ambitiously had a real world going on in the background.

	14-11-2001 12:36									#35
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quote: Originally posted by SnowFire FFX= Final Fantasy 10, and hopefully you've heard of that.

I have heard of that. But I've never been into the entire RPG genre (never held my interest for some reason or another). I have, however, liked the MMORPGs like Asheron's Call.

I have no doubt in my mind that the RPG fans will like the PS2 or Gamecube more. That's more of their market.

The Xbox is more for "American" like games. That's the 'genre' (if you will) that I enjoy most.

I never really got into the Japanese-style games with the exception of Mario back on my NES.

	14-11-2001 12:37									#36
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Asher It's okay to be wrong sometimes, you know. Accept it and move on, deal with your stunning stupidity.

You want me to show my stupidity? Watch this!

	14-11-2001 12:41									#37
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

what pisses me off especially much right now is that bleem! won't work on ff9, nor will it work in xp.

arg....

	14-11-2001 18:28									#38
	Re: For those wondering just who is making Xbox games... Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Asher Gathering of Developers

I thought G.O.D. was dead.

	14-11-2001 18:33									#39
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I prefer computer games... computers will always be a step ahead.

	14-11-2001 18:44									#40
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I bet even Asher's anal dildo has a Microsoft Windows™ logo on it

No, I'm not ready for the X-box, at all. I have a PC, I can get the games I want for the PC, and it fulfils my other needs quite adequately (computer needs, dirty brain!)

	15-11-2001 00:17									#41
	Inflate your Upload Space

I'm actually not planning on getting any of them, although I did almost get a PSX2 for the FF series. Basically, I don't game enough any more to justify the purchase.

However, one of my friends is still a hard-core gamer. He even works for a video game company, running their internal servers. I've heard plenty of stories from him about the various game dev kits and platforms, and, well, let's just say he isn't getting an X-Box.
Doesn't matter what the specs are if you can't get your machines stable... Even the demo boxes in stores have a nasty habit of crashing, and at that it sounds like they've improved things since the dev kits. They also seem to have the worst designed controllers available right now, so I bet the third-party market for X-Box controllers will be fairly big.
Then there's the usual Microsoft Marketing Tactics (they should make that a game). You'd think they'd play nice when they're trying to establish themselves in a new area, but...

Oh well, the things will help nVidia's stock, so that's good It's just too bad X-Box got an exclusive on the new Oddworld. Between that and Final Fantasy I probably would have picked up a PSX2.

Wraith
"I'm only 13 levels away from finishing this game. So I either finish my game or make you wish I was never born."
- Gaz ("Invader Zim")

	15-11-2001 01:48									#42
	Playstation/Playstation2 Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

How are they better? Let me count the ways?

Controllers: I have never seen a better controller than the Playstation dual shock, which is basically the same as the PS2 controller. 2 analog stucks, 8 buttons within easy reach, excellent ergonomics; nothing else comes close unless it is a copy.

Game Quality: Japanese console games are almost always superior to American console games. American media companies are generally capable of pumping out anything other than repetitive and shallow action-oriented games. If you like that kind of thing that's fine, but give me a good 80-hour RPG any day.

Game Availability: The PS2 is superior in quantity as well as quality, even if you don't count the vast library of good PS1 games that can also be played on the system. The X-box may have good computer games but I'd rather play console games on a console. If I want computer games I'll get computer games. The two gaming environments are very different.

	15-11-2001 02:15									#43
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Uhm, Asher, I hate to tell you this, but that list was naccurate.

It didn't even list LucasArts....

	15-11-2001 02:30									#44
	Tired of ads?

Bill Gates deserved to burn in hell for pushing back development for the computer version of Halo.

	15-11-2001 02:56									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Bill Gates deserved to burn in hell for pushing back development for the computer version of Halo.

Hey! Simmer down, T-Sip!

Freaking Liberal Longhornes.

	15-11-2001 03:35									#46
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I read a few posts in this hugely boring, pro-MS propaganda waste of a thread, and I'm ready to respond to its ignorance.

first off, the playstation 2 is a gigantic ripoff. for $500 (games, controllers, memory cards, system unit - things you wouldn't want to include in the base price, but in reality we all know it's there), you get a half assed DVD player along with some pretty nice hardware, although it's nothing special. the problem with the ps2 is the software. it sucks, it's expensive.

as for the dreamcast, it's a bargain that's perfect for those not into hype. $79 is a third the cost of MS Office, six times less than a ps2 and a ridiculous amount lower than the Xbox. the reason is obvious (no new software), but only a moron would avoid the system just for that. the quality is what matters, not the color of the thing or the flashiness of the specs. the games that you have for the dreamcast are excellent. you aren't buying the popular setup with a DC, or the best hardware, but you're getting something arguably better than the ps2. of course, this assumes you're into this whole lame ass console gaming thing..

gamecube is for the 10 and under eurocom crowd. mario, zelda, whatever. piss piss and more piss.

xbox is interesting and looks good, but where's the innovation? I've seen all this before...football, basketball, sega ports, max payne, halo...bleh. granted the graphics are great to look at, but this doesn't seem like a very ambitious effort by MS. what original efforts were you referring to, glonky?

it's worth noting that the Xbox's ad campaign exceeds nintendos by a a HUGE amount of money. at this rate, it's not unreasonable to see MS spilling into other industries. although, since this is essentially an ugly computer, it's a safe prediction that xbox will fail even with all its extra hype benefits.

at $480 or so, and that's without many addons, the xbox will be laughable in the market. windows XP had a mediocre outing, this will be even worse. bad year for the industry.

	15-11-2001 05:25									#47
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

pc vs. console.

I personally prefer the pc, yet the console does have it's benifits:
Consoles
1) The sole purpose of this thing is games
2) Stable hardware config.
3) Easier game development.
4) No need to upgrade.

PC's
1) Latest and greatest hardware (upgradeability)
2) Very large genre selection
3) Keyboard
4) Civ games


Sidenote--- can the X-box plug into a computer monitor?

	15-11-2001 05:31									#48
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Wraith However, one of my friends is still a hard-core gamer. He even works for a video game company, running their internal servers. I've heard plenty of stories from him about the various game dev kits and platforms, and, well, let's just say he isn't getting an X-Box. Doesn't matter what the specs are if you can't get your machines stable... Even the demo boxes in stores have a nasty habit of crashing, and at that it sounds like they've improved things since the dev kits.

When Dreamcast came out, people said the same thing.
When PS2 came out, people said the same thing.
Look: When the consoles run 24/7 in a cabinet with little to no circulation, they overheat and go kaput. It's a known fact.
Your little story about that was posted on Slashdot weeks ago, and it was inundated with comments about how stupid it is to be making news out of something all consoles do in display cases.

Your friend probably has the same anti-MS sentiments as you've always shown, so I really wouldn't be surprised if he isn't getting an Xbox. But let him do what he wants, maybe he likes 4 megs of VRAM on the Dreamcast, or the castrated anti-aliasing on the PS2.

quote: They also seem to have the worst designed controllers available right now, so I bet the third-party market for X-Box controllers will be fairly big.

You haven't even used the thing. If you have, it's been only for a minute or so. (At this point we remember that Wraith is hopelessly anti-MS anything, so go figure)

quote: six times less than a ps2 and a ridiculous amount lower than the Xbox.

Hey genius, the PS2 is the exact same cost as the Xbox. The MSRP is exactly the same for both of them. MS is going to match the PS2 price for price, with a significant loss per unit sold, to get a foothold in the market.

quote: xbox is interesting and looks good, but where's the innovation? I've seen all this before...football, basketball, sega ports, max payne, halo...bleh. granted the graphics are great to look at, but this doesn't seem like a very ambitious effort by MS. what original efforts were you referring to, glonky?

Just so you know, Wiglaf, you should either clarify your sentence or do some research. If you would look at my comment, I said 'after about 6 months' they will become more original, and you just listed off the games available in < 6 months. Check out www.planetxbox.com yourself or http://xbox.ign.com and look at some of the previews.
And again, how does this tie into MS' efforts? MS isn't making the vast majority of the games, Wiglaf... And if you don't think Xbox is ambitious, you should either look up the definition of the word or just do some research.

quote: since this is essentially an ugly computer, it's a safe prediction that xbox will fail even with all its extra hype benefits.

LOL! Perfect example of supreme idiocy.
Xbox is as much as a PC as much as the Gamecube is a Mac. Honestly, it's true. Take a look at the technical designs of it, the fact that it uses a modified Pentium III doesn't make the Xbox a PC, just like the fact that the Gamecube uses a modified PowerPC chip doesn't make it a Mac. The Gamecube uses a video processor manufactured by ATi, the Xbox one by Nvidia. Doesn't mean they're computers.

I wonder how many times now, wiglaf, you've made sweeping comments like the one above without a clue whatsoever about what you're speaking of. Staggering count.
I seriously doubt the Xbox will fail. It's technologically superior to all of the other consoles, game development is cheap and incredibly easy in comparison to the other consoles, and MS has deep pockets to dip into to ensure a foothold into the consumer's living room (digital entertainment has some big bucks in it).

	15-11-2001 05:44									#49
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--"When Dreamcast came out, people said the same thing.
When PS2 came out, people said the same thing."

They did? Who? When? Where? Why?

Sorry, but no, this is not a "common story" thing. This is from a company that actually has the damn units, not just the display case rumors.

--"Your friend probably has the same anti-MS sentiments as you've always shown,"

Well, considering he's forced to run an NT network plus Exchange at work, that'd be only natural.
However, it isn't the case. He runs XP at home.

--"You haven't even used the thing"

See above. You think these companies don't test their games before they ship them? Now, granted, you're a Microsoft fan, so I can see where you'd be getting that impression, but it is not industry standard practice.

Wraith
"In fact he was incurably insane and hallucinated more or less continually, but by a remarkable stroke of lateral thinking his fellow wizards had reasoned, in that case, that the whole business could be sorted out if only they could find a formula that caused him to hallucinate that he was completely sane."
-- Terry Pratchett ("The Truth")

	15-11-2001 05:45									#50
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Hey genius, the PS2 is the exact same cost as the Xbox. The MSRP is exactly the same for both of them. MS is going to match the PS2 price for price, with a significant loss per unit sold, to get a foothold in the market.

what's up with that loss per unit sold BS? where are you going with that? the ps2 must've gone through the same thing, as will the gamecube. MS isn't the only one in the industry selling without immediate profit...

as for the price point, most Xboxes are sold in bundles, and even if they aren't, they should be (find me one xbox owner without a game and an extra controller...)

quote: ust so you know, Wiglaf, you should either clarify your sentence or do some research. If you would look at my comment, I said 'after about 6 months' they will become more original, and you just listed off the games available in < 6 months. Check out www.planetxbox.com yourself or http://xbox.ign.com and look at some of the previews. And again, how does this tie into MS' efforts? MS isn't making the vast majority of the games, Wiglaf... And if you don't think Xbox is ambitious, you should either look up the definition of the word or just do some research.

most of the "original stuff" I see includes Halo (bungie PC), Jet Radio (sega port), SWAT games (PC), movie titles (aka crap)...great stuff.

quote: LOL! Perfect example of supreme idiocy.

quote: Xbox is as much as a PC as much as the Gamecube is a Mac. Honestly, it's true. Take a look at the technical designs of it, the fact that it uses a modified Pentium III doesn't make the Xbox a PC, just like the fact that the Gamecube uses a modified PowerPC chip doesn't make it a Mac. The Gamecube uses a video processor manufactured by ATi, the Xbox one by Nvidia. Doesn't mean they're computers.

the games are mostly PC ports and the console is manufactured by a computer based company with lots of money to spend on marketing, to the point where little is needed when it comes to innovation. the thing has a hard drive, asher...

	15-11-2001 05:46									#51
	Suffering from ads?

Actually Microsoft's timing on this release is pretty good, even with the high cost.

Look at it this way, lots of people are saying it will be like the Atari Jaguar, or the host of other powerful systems that came out and where costly. Sure these ones died out, but lets not forget the market.

Anyone who would have been interested in these would have been youngsters, there parents would not be willing to buy them, the difference is now, those youngsters have their own money just burning a hole in their pocket.

Their market is the 18-30's... people who grew up with collecovision, intellivision, atari, nintendo, and sega. We remeber how crappy the graphics were then, and we see what they are like now. We are still big kids, but now we can buy our own toys.

	15-11-2001 05:53									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf what's up with that loss per unit sold BS? where are you going with that? the ps2 must've gone through the same thing, as will the gamecube. MS isn't the only one in the industry selling without immediate profit...

PS2 was also sold at a loss, but not as big of one. MS loses $110 on each box sold, PS2 was $50 IIRC.

quote: most of the "original stuff" I see includes Halo (bungie PC), Jet Radio (sega port), SWAT games (PC), movie titles (aka crap)...great stuff.

Compare this to PS2 or Gamecube.
Mario XVII, MarioKart XXXX, Gran Turismo 3, Waveracer II, etc.
Xbox has games like Oddworld, New Legends, Halo, Gun Metal, Circus Maximus, The Simpsons: Road Rage, The Thing, Nightcaster, Arctic Thunder, Heli Heroes, Project Nomads, Mad Dash, Chase, Wiggles, Fate, Warzone Online, Malice, etc. Plus a TON of others.

quote: the games are mostly PC ports and the console is manufactured by a computer based company with lots of money to spend on marketing, to the point where little is needed when it comes to innovation. the thing has a hard drive, asher...

So then the 20GB Nomad Jukeboxes are computers also, then?

Xbox does have a hard drive, and I think that's great for a console. Why WOULDN'T you put a hard drive on a console?

	15-11-2001 05:58									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Wraith --"When Dreamcast came out, people said the same thing. When PS2 came out, people said the same thing." They did? Who? When? Where? Why? Sorry, but no, this is not a "common story" thing. This is from a company that actually has the damn units, not just the display case rumors.

Actually, it IS a common story thing.
You should go in and look at the Slashdot thread on the "Xbox crashes", look at the comments. Lots of informative links and statistics.

quote: See above. You think these companies don't test their games before they ship them? Now, granted, you're a Microsoft fan, so I can see where you'd be getting that impression, but it is not industry standard practice.

Erm...so what you're saying is that because companies beta test their games before shipping you got a bunch of experience with the controller? Gotcha.

	15-11-2001 05:58									#54
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Who was th' Bastard who voted for Dreamcast?

	15-11-2001 06:03									#55
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I should also point out that, contrary to Wiglaf's comment, Microsoft does not manufacture the Xbox.

If you want to learn about how the Xbox is manufactured, read the November 2001 issue of Wired (with the big 'Xbox is here.' text and picture of the Flextronics CEO holding an Xbox.

	15-11-2001 06:47									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Lonestar Who was th' Bastard who voted for Dreamcast?

what?

quote: Compare this to PS2 or Gamecube. Mario XVII, MarioKart XXXX, Gran Turismo 3, Waveracer II, etc. Xbox has games like Oddworld, New Legends, Halo, Gun Metal, Circus Maximus, The Simpsons: Road Rage, The Thing, Nightcaster, Arctic Thunder, Heli Heroes, Project Nomads, Mad Dash, Chase, Wiggles, Fate, Warzone Online, Malice, etc. Plus a TON of others.

console gaming in general, including the PS2 and gamecube, is becoming less and less original every day. the dreamcast was a perfect example of what happens to a system that tries to do something different when it comes to gameplay: the mass market wasn't interested, as the attention was mainly on brand name titles, etc.

personally I think a few of the hyped dreamcast games weren't that great, although some I've played really were innovative enough to sell more than the 300,000 copies total they did. but the ps2? rehashes, and it took only a few minutes of playing to figure that out. console gaming in general is terrible, just to restate my opinion on the whole thing. generally it's all child-oriented crap for people with no attention span.

sorry.

in any event, 90% of the games you listed are going to be trashy first generation efforts with no name companies behind them. I can understand one or two being good or great, but don't get carried away.

quote: PS2 was also sold at a loss, but not as big of one. MS loses $110 on each box sold, PS2 was $50 IIRC.

link...

quote: So then the 20GB Nomad Jukeboxes are computers also, then? Xbox does have a hard drive, and I think that's great for a console. Why WOULDN'T you put a hard drive on a console?

why wouldn't it have a keyboard? a mouse? speakers? a monitor? a pentium 4?

I'm not saying a hard drive makes something a computer. it does make for some interesting similarities, though. and if the nomad jukebox runs software CDs on a windows/MS based setup, I'll look into it.

	15-11-2001 06:59									#57
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf console gaming in general, including the PS2 and gamecube, is becoming less and less original every day. the dreamcast was a perfect example of what happens to a system that tries to do something different when it comes to gameplay: the mass market wasn't interested, as the attention was mainly on brand name titles, etc.

That argument can be made about absolutely everything (PC games, music, even art). Nothing to see here.

quote: just to restate my opinion on the whole thing. generally it's all child-oriented crap for people with no attention span.

Okay, now I see why you're saying such silly things. You haven't even looked at much of the Xbox games, have you?
The target audience for the Xbox is 18+. The target audience for Dreamcast was 12+, the target audience for the Gamecube is "6-18" (by their own admission, btw.)

Games like DOA3, Halo, etc are not "childrens games".

quote: in any event, 90% of the games you listed are going to be trashy first generation efforts with no name companies behind them. I can understand one or two being good or great, but don't get carried away.

LOL! Again, COMPLETE ignorance.
Look at the previews yourself, look at the screenshots, gameplay comments, and the developer names (no-name developers like Bungie, Konami, Red Storm, Electronic Arts, Eidos )

quote: link...

November 2001 edition of Wired.
Has the economics behind the Xbox.

quote: why wouldn't it have a keyboard? a mouse? speakers? a monitor? a pentium 4?

Erm...because it's not a computer? Duh?

quote: I'm not saying a hard drive makes something a computer. it does make for some interesting similarities, though. and if the nomad jukebox runs software CDs on a windows/MS based setup, I'll look into it.

Ah, but the Xbox doesn't run "software CDs". It runs specifically formatted DVDs (your PC games won't work on the Xbox, and vice versa). If anything, the Jukebox is more like a PC in that regard because you can play the same MP3 on the jukebox as you can on the PC.

	15-11-2001 07:37									#58
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quote: That argument can be made about absolutely everything (PC games, music, even art). Nothing to see here.

most original art and music are quite successful, actually.

quote: Okay, now I see why you're saying such silly things. You haven't even looked at much of the Xbox games, have you? The target audience for the Xbox is 18+. The target audience for Dreamcast was 12+, the target audience for the Gamecube is "6-18" (by their own admission, btw.) Games like DOA3, Halo, etc are not "childrens games".

I was talking about console gaming in general - normally people who buy a pretty expensive machine just to play games aren't very mature/old. of course there are exceptions, but for the most part console gaming is for the younger crowd.

and don't tell me DOA2, soul caliber, and soldier of fortune were for preteen kids, either, as their ESRB rating exceeds 18+...

quote: LOL! Again, COMPLETE ignorance. Look at the previews yourself, look at the screenshots, gameplay comments, and the developer names (no-name developers like Bungie, Konami, Red Storm, Electronic Arts, Eidos)

nah, no name developers like Pseudo Interactive (Cel Damage), Mediaquest (Have a Mice Day), Brute Force (Digital Anvil), and Genki (Maximum Chase) come to mind, though...

quote: November 2001 edition of Wired. Has the economics behind the Xbox.

link.

quote: Erm...because it's not a computer? Duh?

why have a hard drive then?

	15-11-2001 07:49									#59
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf most original art and music are quite successful, actually.

Right -- as are original games.
But that's not what you argument was...

quote: nah, no name developers like Pseudo Interactive (Cel Damage), Mediaquest (Have a Mice Day), Brute Force (Digital Anvil), and Genki (Maximum Chase) come to mind, though...

You've never heard of Digital Anvil?
Actually, I have a friend who works at Digital Anvil in Austin. He did network programming for Freelancer.

quote: link.

Buy the magazine yourself, you cheap bastard.

quote: why have a hard drive then?

1) Game demos
2) Lower loading times
3) More saved game space
4) Game add-ons (more levels, etc)

	15-11-2001 08:35									#60
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Right -- as are original games. But that's not what you argument was...

original games aren't very well recieved in the videogame industry, but sad ports and sequels sell millions of copies. that was my original argument, wasn't it?

quote: You've never heard of Digital Anvil? Actually, I have a friend who works at Digital Anvil in Austin. He did network programming for Freelancer.

no, and the only noticable developer I found out of the sports sector was Ubi Soft.

quote: Buy the magazine yourself, you cheap bastard.

sorry to dissapoint you ash, but if you haven't realized it already, I don't piss away money.

quote: 1) Game demos 2) Lower loading times 3) More saved game space 4) Game add-ons (more levels, etc)

they should have speakers, a keyboard, a monitor, and a mouse too.

1) better control
2) more input options
3) improved sound
4) better image quality.
5) etc, etc.