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monkspider
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banned
Aug 2001
time: 23:16
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Ashie Boy! You disappoint me! My very able debate partner over the course of this thread is forced to rely on "X game stinks because I say it stinks"? Come on!
Let's take a look at your collapsing arguement.
"Ridge Racer? Did you even PLAY that game? It's not very good. Project Gotham Racer (Xbox) is actually better.
Tekken Tag? Tekken still exists? 
Madden 2001 vs. NFL Feever 2002. :hmm:
DOA2 vs DOA3... :hmm:
SSX was pretty good, but it wasn't that great.
NO PS2 launch title can compare to Halo or DOA3. Check the review ratings yourself."
Again, says no one but you. SSX got many 9.8's and even 10s from the gaming press, I say SSX, at least for it's time a year ago, was much better than Halo or DoA3 now. Heck, if you are basing so much on your own personal preference. I would rather play the original SSX than those two X-Box games. And who cares if you don't like Tekken? That was another well recieved game that sold well. I will actually take your word on the Gotham/RR thing though.
"Dude, you can't know what the good games are unless you've played them before. So of COURSE the only good games you KNOW about for sure are ones you've already played."
-The brutal ironly here is that you are basing your entire arguement for X-box's superiority on games you have never played. Have you played most games on PS2 or Gamecube? Have you even played even a majority of the AAA games on PS2? It's unreasonable to expect someone to play every game under the sun. And for the record, games that I'm referring to as "good" are the ones that are well recieved by the gaming press. I even refer to halo as good, even though my hatred of FPS games would insure that I personally didn't like it.
I didn't say no "mature" gamers liked Mario and company. It's just that most don't.
Go ahead, ask your fellow college students: Mario 64 or Goldeneye? which one will they answer?
I would say Mario actually, not everyone likes FPS games you know. I can understand how this may seem inconseivable if FPS'ers are the main games you and your friends play, but it is actually very possible I assure you.  I'm not even a huge Mario fan by any means, but I would say for the most part, Mario games have a very large following in the 18+ gaming market. If we are in the habit of making ridiculous claims, I can say most mature gamers don't like FPS games because I personally don't like them.
"And what's wrong with loading your lineup up with great games on pre-existing consoles, and then accompany that with your own great games on top of that?
That seems like a good idea to me.
Or maybe they should listen to you and not get the good games from other consoles and make them better looking, because you just KNOW that they've already been out for a few months...
Hell, how many years was Half-Life out? Isn't that on the PS2?
How about Unreal Tournament?
Once again, your argument is full of flaws and simply hypocritical."
-How is that hypocritical? Simply based on the simple existence of two games for PS2?  Come now, ashie boy! That is still FAR better than what X-box has going for it. The main flaw with the X-box strategy of relying on ports is that people who already own say PS2s or PCs or Gamecubes aren't going to be easily convinced to purchased this magic box of microsofts if the vast majority of the good games can be played already on the consoles they have. In fact, they probably beat them months ago. While it's true these games will recieve enhancements, none but the most hardcore followers would buy an game with a couple extra bells and whistles that they have already played and beaten long ago.
"I'm not basing my love on the system based on my like for Windows. Honestly.
I use what I like. I like Nvidia, I like Intel, and I like Microsoft's deep deep pockets.
Put the three together, and you've got one killer system.
If I had the money right now I'd buy a Gamecube.
I wish I could afford to buy both, but I had to choose. I chose the Xbox primarily because it's a much better compliment for my home theater system than Gamecube is, and quite frankly it's more powerful. There are good and great games on all consoles, and none of them are going to fail.
For the people who think the Xbox is going to fail...well, maybe they don't know just how much money and weight MS has to throw around to make it work. "
Fair enough, but just remeber the 3D0, a game that *did* have really a few really killer apps for the time. Also, Panasonic seemed to have infinitely deep pockets for the support of this system. But it too failed, granted X-mBox hasn't made many of the same launch-mistakes Panasonic made, but it should be shown that not even Microsoft is invincible. So your arguement that just because Microsoft is rich, the X-box will destroy the competition doesn't hold water. Heck Sony is pretty rich too, and Nintendo I'm sure has made some money over the years.
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Asher
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Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:16
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Oh...my...god.
Wiglaf, tell me you DIDN'T just say this:
quote:
The XBox is a tool of communism, through and through, much in the same way Bill Gates' glasses are. Both enable the short little man to see us and invade our privacy and tweak his products in ways normal competitors cannot. Therefore, we have to "break up" his glasses. |
If that wasn't enough, you go on to say every gaming site that is giving good reviews of Xbox games are MS biased and whatnot.
Get a clue. REALLY! Please!
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like Age of Empires, MS again seeks to copy original game designs (civ2/myth, nfl2k1,madden/fever) to try and get a foot in the competitive industry. how low is that? |
In your infinite wisdom, you forgot that MS doesn't actually make those games.
MS just publishes them, and now owns the development company that makes them (Ensemble Studios, IIRC)
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try the civ series, the new RTS games like empire earth or myth, and all the RPGs like diablo. of course, that's leaving out World of Warcraft, and every other genre busting title slated for mid 2002 release (there are maybe two or three others, judging by preview lists). |
You're absolutely right! The Civ series and RTS games are shining examples of originality ONLY existing on the PC side of things!
Funny...
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Again, says no one but you. SSX got many 9.8's and even 10s from the gaming press, I say SSX, at least for it's time a year ago, was much better than Halo or DoA3 now. Heck, if you are basing so much on your own personal preference. I would rather play the original SSX than those two X-Box games. And who cares if you don't like Tekken? That was another well recieved game that sold well. I will actually take your word on the Gotham/RR thing though. |
If you want to play SSX, why don't you play SSX: Tricky on Xbox? Sequel to SSX, rated higher, and the Xbox version has a graphical facelift compared to the GC/PS2 while keeping the same gameplay.
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The brutal ironly here is that you are basing your entire arguement for X-box's superiority on games you have never played. |
Erm...I am? No, I am not.
WIGLAF is basing his argument on the fact that "Xbox has no good games and never will". Stupid, yes, but he seems to believe it.
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Have you played most games on PS2 or Gamecube? |
I have not played most games on the PS2 (there are like 200 now aren't there?). I've played the "better" ones according to people I know, review sites, etc. Again, my brother owns the PS2.
And I've played about half of the Gamecube games: Rogue Squadron II, Luigi's Mansion, Super Monkey Ball, NFL 2K2, and WaveRace II. One of my friends who lives on campus bought the Gamecube, so I spent quite a bit of time in his dorm room. Again: Gamecube does have a respectable launch lineup, most games are pretty fun for the most part.
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Have you even played even a majority of the AAA games on PS2? |
Yup. My brother's a console gaming nut.
Let me also say this: He thought the Xbox was pretty lame also before he actually played it.
He's playing Halo nonstop now, hasn't even touched his PS2 except for once to compare DOA2 to DOA3's graphics. Let's just say: Not even close.
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They have been for quite a while. The processor in the X-Box is a scaled-down P3-733. Graphically, the X-Box will be surpassed as soon as nVidia releases the NV25. In many ways, it already is surpassed by the GeForce 3 Ti200 (which has more memory bandwidth, and can therefore handle higher resolutions). |
While true in one sense, Wraith, you left out some other important features.
The Xbox's GPU has an extra vertex shader pipeline. This effectively doubles T&L calculations and all other vertex program applications. That's the main reason you can get such stunning graphics in DOA3, etc. This won't pop up on the PC hardware for about a year, with the NV30 (which is also rumored to support NURBS)
Then there's also the fact that the Xbox actually has a hypertransport bus installed (800MB/s between the two bridges: IGP, MCP).
And finally, one point that can't be emphasized enough, the specialized OS. There is zero OS overhead on the Xbox. In fact, the OS takes up 510KB of RAM on the thing. 100% of your CPU cycles are going towards the game and the game alone, no OS things loaded you'll never use which will slow down the speed.
I think it'll be about 1 year before the PC can handle what the Xbox does.
But:
They won't. I mean, let's face it, the vast majority of gamers won't have a DreamForce (if that's what they call it) video card installed. In fact, I bet that video card alone will cost more than the entire Xbox (a GeForce 3 runs about the same price or more as the Xbox alone). What you'll get is some toned down graphics. And yes, I do know the companies can make them as an option or not, but it's really hard to make a game use 2 vertex pipelines, then to have that cut in half (or on pre-GF3 boards, have it entirely done in the CPU) without doing some major recoding.
Oh, and BTW, the GeForce 3 Ti200 doesn't have more memory bandwidth. It's 200MHz DDR RAM, and its core is 175MHz and it only has 1 vertex pipeline. That's theoretically the same memory bandwidth, I'll grant you that, but the fill rate is drastically different. Maximum theoretical fillrate on the Xbox is 4000MPixels/second, maximum theoreitcal on the Ti200 is 700MPixels/second. That's not including the extra muscle the Xbox has with vertex calculations.
Last edited by Asher on 22-11-2001 at 08:56
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jep
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of Catan
Sep 2001
time: 05:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Wiglaf
funny, I don't. Besides, Morgan Stanley is a sellout organization, probably partially owned by MS or something, and only a few minutes of checking out that horrid quote will tell you that their reputation obviously applies here. I don't care what "Mary Meeker" has to say, she's one of 6.5 billion people who could make the same call either way. great "source"...
for the record, my article had a panel of proven experts and included polls of thousands of consumers.
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Yes, I suppose MSDW no nothing of economics, marketing and finance et al. They're clueless beginners when it comes to predicting the successes of business ventures! I mean, the only reason they've managed to get to their position in the industry is...uh...hmm... Damn.
So where is this mythical article of yours? Who were these panel of experts? What was their justification? Who were these consumers? What was the question asked? When was it asked?
All contained in the article you say? Aww. Too bad this mysterious article doesn't appear to exist.
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jeppy and asher.
When I call MS commie, I'm talking about the sort of communism they have in China or Cuba, where no one has any freedom, in the market or otherwise. In many ways, Bush - the most powerful person in the word - is being trampled by the size and power of MS alone, and damn if that isn't wrong or scary as hell. |
China isn't a straight communist country anymore. Duh.
If there is such a thing as 'normal' communism. China was originally Maoist Communism (after Mao Tse-tung, obviously) who adapted Lenin's Communism to the primarily agrian population of China. Over the years it's become more open to foreign investment and it's economy and politics have changed somewhat. Communism, on the other hand, hasn't. Damn those abstract ideas and philosophies! Damn them all!
The sort of communism they have in Cuba? Sorry, try again. You really don't know anything about communism (or seemingly any political philosophy, the word you're looking for is fascism, not communism - but even then you'd be wrong), do you? 
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besides that, jeppsters, you sound a lot like glonky anyway. interesting.  |
You imply Glonk would bother to create a second account to argue against you? Haha.
And of course I sound like Glonk. Who do you think he learned the art of Zealot-bashing from in the first place? 
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Asher
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Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:16
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Tom is entitled to his often-wrong always-biased opinion. 
The thing is powerful, moreso than any other console.
And this power is systematic across the board, so all games can use all the power (something you can't do on the PC).
Tom just looked at the hardware specs, primarily the CPU. 
The video system on the Xbox would be considered ultra-high end for the PC (in fact, it'd cost more than the entire Xbox itself just to get the AGP card).
The CPU doesn't really have to do anything but AI and Physics. Sound is done completely on the Nvidia MCP, Graphics on the Nvidia GPU (unlike the PS2, which does much of this on the CPU).
There are many distinct advantages the Xbox has over the PC, but I'm sure you already know that.
Tom's bias is so blatantly obvious, I'm sure you've noticed it. Take this line for example:
quote:
(graphics are the) only significant difference between Xbox and its competitors. |
Xbox has a built in hard drive. All developers can count on that being there.
Xbox has built in broadband. All developers can count on that being there.
Xbox does Dolby Digital 5.1 encoding. No others do.
Xbox does HDTV game output. Only competitor here is Gamecube with its 480p support.
Xbox's DVD playback is better than PS2's (GC doesn't even have one)
Xbox's CPU has A LOT less to do, and still accomplishes more MIPS than the other consoles.
But don't let little things like that spoil his rant.
Edit: And as a sign of how much he knows what he's talking about, he's got a bunch of the numbers wrong. It's an 8GB HD and 233MHz graphics chip.
And it's 256 audio channels, 64 *3D* channels.
Christ, all of this information has been public knowledge for a year now too!
Last edited by Asher on 22-11-2001 at 13:49
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Wraith
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Austin, Texas, USA
Aug 1999
time: 23:16
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--"While true in one sense, Wraith, you left out some other important features."
I said "In many ways" instead of "In all ways" for a reason.
The second vertex shader pipeline is of limited utility. In the X-Box's situation it's a good thing. There's not going to be any games going over 480p, so there's no worry about the memory bandwidth the extra shader requires at high resolutions. People on PCs tend to run in higher resolutions, however, and since graphics cards are already memory-starved, adding another memory-sucking feature isn't going to improve things.
--"Then there's also the fact that the Xbox actually has a hypertransport bus installed"
So buy an nForce motherboard. That's probably going to be in my next machine.
--"There is zero OS overhead on the Xbox."
Bullshit. There may well be less OS overhead than on a general Win 2k or whatever machine, but zero is not possible unless they've put the OS in hardware.
--"That's theoretically the same memory bandwidth,"
Not exactly. Don't discount the memory bus width in this. X-Box, from what I've read, has a 64 bit bus. The GeForce 3, IIRC, is a 128 bit bus.
--"Tom is entitled to his often-wrong always-biased opinion."
Odd. He's been biased towards Intel and MS lately. This is most easily noted in his recent reviews of the Athlon XP, where slim P4 leads in benchmarks were "overwhelming" while fair AXP leads were "we'll see how the new version of the program effects these results". He was also using a single sub-test of a particular set of benchmarks, the only one of the set that happened to be won by the P4.
Sorry, but it's hard to accept your condemnation of bias in the spirit you intended.
Besides, Ananad, one of your link points, has a similar article up.
--"Xbox does HDTV game output. Only competitor here is Gamecube with its 480p support."
IIRC, Dreamcast can do this as well.
--"And as a sign of how much he knows what he's talking about, he's got a bunch of the numbers wrong. It's an 8GB HD and 233MHz graphics chip"
As a sign of how much you what you're talking about, it has been confirmed that there are two different hard-drives being used in the X-Box. One is 10 GB from Seagate, the other is 8 GB from someone else.
Wraith
"There are only stupid people around me, but they mean well."
-- Hiei, Yu Yu Hakusho
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Wiglaf
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Cambridge
Dec 2000
time: 23:16
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quote:
So where is this mythical article of yours? Who were these panel of experts? What was their justification? Who were these consumers? What was the question asked? When was it asked?
All contained in the article you say? Aww. Too bad this mysterious article doesn't appear to exist. |
It's AOL ONLY. I can't link it, legally or if I wanted to. Not really a web address.
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You do realize that game companies send reviewers the copies first, right?
Much like movie reviewers typically see movies before they're released? |
the copy of Axis and Allies reviewed by IGN must then be COMPLETELY different from the one on store shelves. questions:
1) have you read either A&A review on ignpc?
2) have you played Iron Blitz or Axis and Allies CD?
if you've done both, you'd notice the review to be at least 5/10 points off, and it mentions NONE of the dozens of known bugs that plagued the game since release and still do. Again, it's either a biased or horribly poor reviewing site.
quote:
China isn't a straight communist country anymore. Duh.
If there is such a thing as 'normal' communism. China was originally Maoist Communism (after Mao Tse-tung, obviously) who adapted Lenin's Communism to the primarily agrian population of China. Over the years it's become more open to foreign investment and it's economy and politics have changed somewhat. Communism, on the other hand, hasn't. Damn those abstract ideas and philosophies! Damn them all!
The sort of communism they have in Cuba? Sorry, try again. You really don't know anything about communism (or seemingly any political philosophy, the word you're looking for is fascism, not communism - but even then you'd be wrong), do you? |
I go by the dictionary. Asher does it from time to time, after all. (one of the older MS threads)
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Asher
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Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Wraith
Not exactly. Don't discount the memory bus width in this. X-Box, from what I've read, has a 64 bit bus. The GeForce 3, IIRC, is a 128 bit bus. |
The GeForce 3's memory is weird, it works via 4 x 64-bit controllers. Anyway, the end result is the GeForce 3 Ti200 has 6.4GB/s of memory bandwidth (Source: http://www6.tomshardware.com/graphi...itanium-02.html)
quote:
Odd. He's been biased towards Intel and MS lately. This is most easily noted in his recent reviews of the Athlon XP, where slim P4 leads in benchmarks were "overwhelming" while fair AXP leads were "we'll see how the new version of the program effects these results". He was also using a single sub-test of a particular set of benchmarks, the only one of the set that happened to be won by the P4.
Sorry, but it's hard to accept your condemnation of bias in the spirit you intended. |
You've got that backwards.
Take these quotes for example: "The Pentium 4/2000 doesn't even enter the picture until fourth place." (P4 lost by 150 3DMarks)
"We were in for a surprise with the new MPEG-4-Codec DivX 4.02.1: when used together with Flask Mpeg 0.6, the Athlon XP 1800+ (clocked at 1533 MHZ) knocked the stuffing out of the Pentium 4, clocked at 2000 MHz." (Athlon had 23.3, P4 had 21.5)
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Besides, Ananad, one of your link points, has a similar article up. |
Indeed he does, and it's a FAR better writeup. MUCH more detailed, ACCURATE figures, and unbiased responses.
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As a sign of how much you what you're talking about, it has been confirmed that there are two different hard-drives being used in the X-Box. One is 10 GB from Seagate, the other is 8 GB from someone else. |
If you'd look into it, you'd see the Xboxes all only read 8GB regardless of if it's a 10 or 8 gig drive (mine's a Seagate, still says 10,000 blocks of memory -- same as the blocks of memory for the 8GB drive).
It's really an 8 gig drive, despite the fact that it's maximum is 10.
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It's AOL ONLY. I can't link it, legally or if I wanted to. Not really a web address. |
Didn't you say earlier it was by the Associated Press? Go find it in Yahoo or something. If it's an article written by AOL, I will laugh so hard at you...
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asher, when did you change your handle? jeppsters giving me the DL creeps, with his infinite login knowlege. |
Jep lives across the country from me (you can check his IP). He's going to Waterloo and I'm here in Calgary. And why the hell would I create a login just to make fun of you? I do that just fine with my own.
Last edited by Asher on 23-11-2001 at 01:46
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Wraith
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Austin, Texas, USA
Aug 1999
time: 23:16
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--"The GeForce 3's memory is weird,"
It's not weird, it's very efficent. Their crossbar controller allows the memory to get much closer to the theoretical maximum bandwidth, by allowing the controller to move data in smaller chunks (4x32, btw, not 64). Since most of the data used in the video processing is not stored in 128 bit increments this works out very well. It also means that the X-Box, with it's 64 Megs (unless they're doing a 4x32bit with 16 megs on each, which doesn't seem likely given the photos showing number of RAM chips), will not operate as efficently. It also has to deal with sending all the other traffic over that same bus (DVD to HD, etc), so it simply will not have the same graphics bandwidth as the Ti200.
--"You've got that backwards."
So you were able to find two favorable Althon quotes. Congratulations. The AXP does win some benchmarks so readily that even Tom can't ignore it without looking a fool. And that still doesn't touched the biased benchmark suite.
--"If you'd look into it, you'd see the Xboxes all only read 8GB regardless of if it's a 10 or 8 gig drive"
This is exactly the kind of argument that I despise to get, and exactly the kind of argument you make all the damn time. You know good and well that the drive itself is 10 gigs, whether or not the X-Box OS is willing to recognize it. This is an arbitrary limitation of the software, and has nothing to do with the hardware.
Look, you were either wrong (in which case you should just accept it and move on) or you're trying to cover your ass because you were trying to embarras UR regardless of the facts and were hoping no-one would know better (in which case you've been called on it and should stop doing it).
--"Please don't twist everything I say."
Wiglaf, if you're going to argue with Glonsher, you'll have to get used to it. This is his SOP. Every time he realizes he's loosing an argument he starts context-dropping and twisting everyone's comments. It's incredibly frustrating, and if he acts like this in person I'm surprised he hasn't had all his teeth knocked out yet.
Wraith
"++?????++ Out of Cheese Error. Redo From Start."
-- Terry Pratchett, Interesting Times
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November Adam
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Calgary, AB, Canada
Jul 2001
time: 22:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Wiglaf
wrong. I said for you to go to IGN for a somewhat reasonable, and not very good for MS, review of NFL Fever. you got one, but it still was an inflated score because of ign's pro-Xbox bias. (the editors are known for their fanatical support of a given console, PC genre or whatever. brandon justice, IGNDC, anyone?)
it's a good source for that particular title, compared to what you'll find Microsoft advertising. still isn't perfect, though.
Please don't twist everything I say.
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Wiglaf I'm not twisting what you said, here it is (the first portion is mine, the next is yours).
quote:
I think in the official X-box mag. NFL Fever 2002, recieved a slightly better score then Madden. Something like 9.2, for Fever, and 9.1 for Madden.
"Wonder why that is.
check out any non-biased reviews site, like gamespot or ign, and you'll get a completely different story. Microsoft should be broken up just for that atrocity of a piece of software. "
Wiglaf, I don't care how you feel about this, but keep in mind your getting overly zealous in your denouncement of the X-Box. Like it or hate it, it is not something that will go away on your whim.
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22-11-2001 06:10
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