14-11-2001 12:17									#1
	What am I doing wrong? Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Hi,

I have previous experience from Civ1, Civ2, and Alpha Centuri.

I never really played those games a lot, but I played enough to understand the game.

However, in my first game of Civ3, I got completely wiped out.

My strategy was to build a few cities (had about 15-20) when the game timelimit ran out in 2050AD. However, each of those cities were completely developed in that they all had every improvement they could have.

My military was weak, but I never wanted to make a strong military. ( I wanted to see how these new "winning" modes worked.

In the past Civ games, I always did well having a few cities.

It seems to me in Civ3 you NEED to jsut built massive amounts of cities.

The problem is that timelimit.

When the game ended, I had just researched Steam power. I basically missed out on 2 entire revolutions. (Industrial and modern)

What did I do wrong? Suggestions?

My science investment was a stead 60-70% throughout the entire game.

I'm really suprised here.

Thanks for any help.

Smithy

	14-11-2001 12:28									#2
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You gotta give us a lot more details. Like what level are you playing on, your settings, city improvements, wonders, roads, government type, dealings with the AI etc. Usually, how often do you get an advance?

I don't want to brag but just to give you an idea: in 1400 AD, playing on Monarch level, large map 16 civs, I am researching the last few techs of the industrial age. I assure you that the game is working and the time limit is not an issue.

Have you changed the rules to give very slow research rates?

	14-11-2001 13:05									#3
	Details Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Well, I just got the game earlier today and I was speaking of my first game.

I played on a standard size map, 7 civs I believe.

Every city had every improvement they could (library, temple, ect).

Played on the chieftan difficulty level with the French I believe.

Not sure about tech advances, but I would say I averaged about 10-12 turns except for the very beginning.

I'm just not really sure of my problem. I'm just looking for some general advice because I know I REALLY messed up something.

Could you perhaps detail what you did; your strategy, how you built, etc.

I made some collosul mistake along the way, adn I'm not sure what it was.

However, at the end of my game, (2050 AD), my score was in the mid-200s and the competition averaged mid-500s.

I just can't figure it out. I used the same basic strategy I did in Civ2 (build a few cities, but make sure they have all improvements and very little military).

On the timeline the game shows you at the end of the game, I had my second city when the other civs were on their fourth of fifth.

I'm beginning to think my problem was simply not building enouhg cities, but I'm just trying to get some general ideas to see if they make a difference.

Thanks,
Smithy

	14-11-2001 13:13									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I think a lot of cities in the early game is one approach. I use that for a few reasons: 1) To hem in the AI (this becomes much more important on higher difficulty levels) 2) To secure access to the resources that I can't see now but are likely 'out there' anyway and 3) To lay the foundation for a large economic base.

I would say too few cities in the early game is hurting you. Hard to say without watching you play, though. Once you get cranking, you should have no more than 4 turns per tech by the late 1800's or so (and getting to that point much faster is very doable once you start to streamline things).

	14-11-2001 13:34									#5
	Put an end to popups!

a tip. I finished a chieftan game a few days ago, and have since moved on to warlord where I have done well. But in regent I got wiped out militarily by the ai . their archers took out my elite spearmen

tip: raise luxeries to at least 10%. The we love the king days seem to help out your society in many ways. It seemed to increase my science research as well. Go for monarchy ASAP. Then go for democracy ASAP. Make sure wars are brief but strong. Accomplish your objectives within 10 turns of the war starting. Don't start wars yourself except to keep ai out of your territory.

another tip. conquer 2 or 3 civs that border you. This helped in my games. It gave me more cities, and I didn't have to build all the settlers to make them myself.

	14-11-2001 13:39									#6
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another tip if you don't already know this. Just making sure. make sure roads are connected to all you luxery resources. They help out immensely. You can also trade those luxeries with other civs. Don't be afraid to trade tech early in the game 1 for 1. It helps get out of the stone age much faster. Eventually you will pull ahead.

don't forget super science city. There are now 3 wonders (at least) to build. copernicus, isaac newton, and SETI. along with libarary, marketplace, bank, university, harbour, and research lab. There are a few other improvement to build as well. Cover your empire with roads. Don't forget ocean, river squares. Trade bonus' are decent there.

	14-11-2001 13:40									#7
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wow. 1 day and you have reached the time limit

It takes me about a week of intensive playing (loss of sleep, no tv, no other forms of entertainment, nothing else but civ) to finish one game, and that's on the easier settings.

Things that may help:

- micro-manage your workers. Make sure that every square has a road.
- go for republic, then democracy
- build some science wonders
- trade techs with the AI civs
- build lots of cities at the beginning.

	14-11-2001 13:42									#8
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well, i bet you didnot pay enough attention to diplomacy. especially during the ancient era, science production is quite low and trying to discover all advances by yourself is really a though task. i generally get >%75 of my advances during ancient & early medieval era through trades.
i mean; periodically contact with other leaders, check if they have discovered something you dont have, try to figure out if there is a chance for a deal, if you succeed, use the newly acquired tech for another bargain with a different civ, and so on..
since you are a human and they are AIs you will be pretty ahead after sometime.

and 10-15 cities are fair enough to discover every possible techs during the gametime. if you dont already, you better build science generating (libs and universities) improvements ahead of others..

and of course, you should build roads on every SINGLE tile your citizens are working on and advance to higher levels of goverments ASAP (despotism -> republic -> democracy)

	14-11-2001 13:54									#9
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Diplomacy helps, but I bet he is doing something else wrong.

On Regent I made the mistake of not conducting any diplomacy or trade and I still held the tech lead.

If he is playing on Chieftain he should be able to get a tech lead without trading techs.

Trading tech definitely helps though.

	14-11-2001 15:03									#10
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Hmmm, it's tough to get that far into the game without so much science, especially at chieftan.... You must have spent a lot of time waiting for stuff.

My two cents:

You need to have lots of cities from the start. So found your first city in the first or the second turn. Have maximum food and build a settler as soon as you are going to reach 3 pop. Build 2-3 with the capital. Use these to build cities under the same conditions each building 2-3 settlers. Get 10-20 cities going as soon as you can.

Also build lots of workers to get roads on each square you are going to work on. This creates commerce of which science is used. The more commerce the more science.

Also get to republic and democracy as they greatly increase commerce and reduce corruption.

Finally trade techs with other civs, or buy them with money and trade goods.

Let me know if you didnt do any of these things

	14-11-2001 18:12									#11
	Some more details Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Well, after a wonderful two hours of sleep, I'll try to provide some more details to some questions people raised.

I had almost 0 contact with the other 4 civs except for the closest two to me. The other four I hadn't even made contact with before the end of the game. Kinda strange, but that is how it happened.

I am beginning to think the game was a fluke because people were getting where I was at 2050 AD by the 1400s.

I think my problem was almost no diplomacy ( i guess they really did change it a lot in Civ3), very little trade, and I never conquered any other civs.

I think I focused too much on 1-2 cities in the beginning and let the other civs get too powerful.

And yes, I maintained a scientific edge over every other civ the most of the game.

Thanks for the suggestions.

Smithy

	14-11-2001 20:54									#12
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Yeah; you learn fast that CivIII is definitely a different game from CivII. CivII, it was almost always everyone versus you; here, diplomacy rules.

Even if you haven't physically seen other AI civs, you can (one you get writing, and maybe another tech) trade "contact" with other civs during diplomacy, possibly asking an ai to throw in contact as a deal or paying a small lump sum for contact... this allows you to perform diplomacy w/ far off civs and get some world maps early and hopefully trade techs.

Also, as was mentioned, make sure you take advantage of the new luxury resources.

	14-11-2001 21:42									#13
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I had the exact same problem. I still have yet to see the end of the industrial age at 1400, but I did manage to speed things up a bit. Here is what I did.

Build build build build build. I can't stress this enough. Having 20 cities with high corruption is better than having 5 cities with no corruption. The more map you control, the more resources you control (in theory).

Don't underestimate luxury resources. They can keep your citizens very happy. One happy citizen (one luxury) can make the difference between WLTK day and normal production. WLTK day will help you tremendously in production of both science and commerce.

Keep a strong military and avoid war. I usually try to keep at least three of my power units (the best balanced units I have) per city. In republic or democratic you are going to pay to support this, but no one is going to be too anxious to declare war with you. If you haven't invented railroads, keep your intimidation units evenly dispersed so they are ready to act wherever you need them. If you have railroads, then keep them all in one place so they are easier to find (damn interface); You can move them across your empire in 1 or 2 turns with railroads anyway, if you need to.

Micromanage your science: Decide how many turns is ideal for a particular breakthrough, then use the slider so you are getting a good balance of science spending and breakthrough. When you get down to 1 turn, you will find you can turn the slider down to 20-30% sometimes without jeopardizing the fact that you will get a new tech on the next turn.

Discriminate between wonders, especially early in the game. If you don't really need it, leave it for the AI; Let him waste shields on it. Invest in science wonders.

Don't build it unless you need it. Don't waste time/money on maintaining city improvements that you don't really need. A city under size 5 doesn't really need a temple (especially on chieftain), so why pay to maintain it if you don't need it? Forget about granaries, and only build one or two barracks (evenly dispersed throughout your empire) unless you plan to build Sun Tzu's Art of War, which I recommend.

Roads on everything, and an even balance of mines and irrigations. Always build mines first early in the game.

Hope this helps, but I'm one to talk; I've only won one game that wasn't by default.

Cheers,

-Pacific_Wing