15-11-2001 04:09									#1
	Apolyton ExtraCivs Pack: Existing civs Put an end to popups!

In the main discussion thread the question was raised if we, when we're making an Apolyton ExtraCivs Pack, should change the existing civs as well? The polls about esp. the Zulu and the Iroquois suggest that many people think these civs should be replaced and we should thus be 'allowed' to mess with the existing civs but with this thread I would like to find out how many people would have real objections (and thus would not use the Pack when finished) to making any changes to the existing civs. 'Changes' here can be anything: removing/replacing civs, changing the UU/CSAs/leaders, fixing typo's or obvious mistakes (I've spotted at least 2 already), anything at all... If a reasonable number of people want to go both ways, we can consider an compromise (FE release 2 versions), if a large mayority of people votes for (not) making changes, we'll go with whatever people voted for (and those who oppose the decision will simply have to go to the trouble of making changes or undoing them him/herself or not use the Pack at all).

Explanation on 'game balance purposes': you should think in terms of preventing we end up with 4 civs with Expansionist/Commercial ability, that there are too many naval Unique Units in the game or UU with identical stats, etc. In this case we'll try to keep the existing stuff the same as much as possible and only make changes in 'emergency situations'. It's quite possible these situations won't occur at all.

Explanation of 'most glaring errors': In this case we won't do a complete revamp of all city lists and change UUs, leaders, etc whenever we feel (or whatever) but we will only things that are blatantly wrong (FE replace the Zulu, fix only the most obvious flaws in city lists) but not go any further than strictly necessary. (Personally I would very much like to have a good look at the generals and city lists and perhaps 1 or 2 of the leaders and unique units, some room for serious improvement there - that would go beyond fixing the 'most glaring errors')

	15-11-2001 04:59									#2
	Remove this text

I voted 'No, but ...'. I donīt think we should remove existing civs (not even the Zulus), but letīs tinker with city lists, special units and CSAīs (provided new ones can be added with the next version of the editor).

	15-11-2001 16:17									#3
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Damn, good point, lockstep, I should have added that as an option...

	15-11-2001 16:40									#4
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I completely agree with lockstep.

To remove certain civs (even the Iroquois!) would cause too much confusion. FIRAXIS patches will be designed for those civs. It would be a mess to change any of those. I know how confusing it was in Civ2 when I changed a civ-slot!

	15-11-2001 18:44									#5
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Well, I explained in the other thread that we can easily patch wasever Firaxis patches. Basically all you do is change the name, rename the leader and UU, change the city lists & generals and change the CSAs but all for the same civ. IMHO not all that different from changing those properties for different civs...

	15-11-2001 18:52									#6
	Got spare money?

What's a CSA?

I voted for "No, just add new civs". I think we should respect Firaxis idea of game balancing. What we should do is to say what we would like to see if 16 new civs are added in an expansion pack.

	15-11-2001 22:19									#7
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Is it right that we can add 16 extra-civs to the existing civs? If so, why then remove existing civs (not that I particularly like zulus and iroquois)? Those who otherwise would like the extra pack might obstain to use it just because of this removal.

	15-11-2001 22:50									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Zealot What's a CSA?

CSA = Civ-specific ability (commercial, expansionist etc.)

quote: Originally posted by Wernazuma III Is it right that we can add 16 extra-civs to the existing civs? If so, why then remove existing civs (not that I particularly like zulus and iroquois)?

AFAIK, only 15 civs can be added (slot No. 32 being used by the Barbarians). Anyhow, itīs also my opinion that the Zulus and Iroquois really deserve to be in the combined Firaxis/Apolyton civs pack.

	16-11-2001 02:23									#9
	Got spare money?

Don't get rid of the Zulus. They are my favorite scrappers-- the AI is so predictable with them, I'd hate to lose the fun of squashing them