15-11-2001 04:28									#1
	Apolyton ExtraCivs Pack: German Unique Unit Tired of ads?

As explained in the main discussion thread, we should decide on some of the Unique Units for the Apolyton ExtraCivs Pack ASAP so the graphics people can start working when they're ready. So that's what this thread is about : deciding what the Unique Unit of the Germans should be. I think I picked the most logical choices but feel free to post alternatives (if 'Other' becomes very popular we could have a 'second round').

For each civ I added a very brief description to give an impresssion of the importance of each unit. Note that I had to make 20 odd descriptions for 5 threads so I didn't bother doing extensive research or anything, 95% of the info is from the top of my head. So it's quite possible I made some mistakes or left out vital information or whatever. I very much encourage others with more knowlegde and time to post more elaborate explanations and/or point out my mistakes (some pictures could be useful as well, esp. for the graphics people).



Explanations:
The Germans were in WWI but especially in WWII famous for their Tanks. Their Blitzkrieg strategy relied heavily on Tanks and Armored Vehicles. Panzer is simply German for Tank. German tanks were generally superior to British and American Tanks but except for the latest models (the old story: too little, too late) were no match for the Russians.

The U-Boat was also a vital weapon for the Germans, esp. early on in WWII. If it wasn't for some poor decisions by Hitler the U-Boat war on the Atlantic would have been won by the Germans and the British would have run out of supplies, making Great Britain a sitting duck for a German invasion force. The formations in which the U-Boats moved around in the later stages of the U-Boat war was called Wolfpack.

The Stuka Divebomber was a very poor design for an airplane but it did its job better than anyone had envisioned in advance: precision bombing and scaring the living sh*t out of the enemy. Though it could carry a decent bombload and was equipped with 4 machine guns, its most powerful weapon was probably the horn that gave it its characteristic shrieking sound that quite possibly made it the scariest conventional weapon in the history of warfare (for whoever was the target).

Prussian riflemen/grenadiers were the troops of the Golden Age of the Germans (the time around the formation of Germany as a country and the Franco-Prussian War). With these troops the Prussians conquered the whole of Germany and no problem with taking on France (taking Paris) or Austria either.

The Teutonic Knights were an order of knights that in Medieval times conquered an empire together against German and East European pagans. They also fought in the Crusades. Basically they were ordinary knights only highly skilled.

	15-11-2001 04:55									#2
	Suffering from ads?

I'm not 100% sure about how this Golden Age-thing works (I don't have the game yet ), but IIRC it's triggered when a UU wins in combat.
If so, is the 'real' question here ''what do we want as the German Golden Age?''? WW2 (panzer, stuka & uboat), 1870s-80s (Prussian rifleman) or the Middle ages (teutonic knight)?

	15-11-2001 05:02									#3
	Increase Your PM Length

Here's a Teutpnic Knight pic I found...


A German U-Boat...


And a website with some digitized Stuka images...
http://rhino3d.com/gallery/aircraft/stuka.htm

	15-11-2001 05:06									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

In respect to Germanic horder that scared the living daylights out of the Roman legions, how about the Beserker? It could either be a 2/1/1 unit for 10 shields, or perhaps a 3/1/1 for 20 shields. I think 3/1/1 makes more sense in order to equate them to Roman Legions.
Also, since this would be an ancient era unit, I think it would be more useful than the panzer (earlier bonuses yield higher turn advantage).
As for unit design, a warrior with his hair on fire (a commom Berserker image) would be pretty cool.

	15-11-2001 05:24									#5
	No Stukas!!! Get a bigger avatar today!

Please no Stukas or U-boots - while these two units are representative of German units, they were no better than their allied counterparts, unlike most UUs.

Just keep the Panzer.

	15-11-2001 07:08									#6
	Prussian Rifleman Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

While Panzers are what we think of for Germany in WW2, Locutus is right that the golden age of Germany was the 19th, not 20th century- why do you think Bismark. There are also not enough special units in the early Modern Age. Perhaps make their unit a rifleman with 5/6/1 or 4/6/2- either better at attck like the French Musketeer or more mobile and thus more tactically capable, like the Jaguar warrior

	15-11-2001 08:01									#7
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

As I said here, the 19th century German troops weren't "uniquely" good, even if Prussia kicked some fairly serious tail in the 1860s. Other armies had trained troops of the same sort with the same or better weapons, they were pretty typical. The distinction was in higher command, organization, etc, in my view.

A 4-4-1 or 3-5-1 musket unit with a cost higher than the French musketeer and dependant on Military Tradition or maybe metallurgy would be a unique German unit. But to be truthful it's simpler just to keep the Panzer. It works! There's no need to debate the qualities of the Panzer IIIe vs the Panzer IV, it's not that specific a game. Hell, the French have musketeers. That's a tip of the hat to Dumas more than any actual history I'm aware of.

	15-11-2001 08:23									#8
	Support Apolyton

hope Ecthelion sees this thread



i say rename the panzer. that's a pretty general word isn't it? don't other germanic languages use panzer as their word for tank?

	15-11-2001 08:58									#9
	Support Apolyton

Grenadier and it should have a better attack rating and also a mobility bonus... during the Franco Prussian war the great feat of the German army was to have 300,000 in the front in less than a week thanks to the railways, and then it was a walk in teh park to Paris.

	15-11-2001 08:59									#10
	Increase Your PM Length

d-dudy:

panzerkampfwagen?

	15-11-2001 14:16									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I won't call the 3rd Reich a german 'Golden Age', but fact is, that Nazi-Germany was an extremely powerful nation in that era, at least concerning the military.
Since the german tanks were an essential part of the Blitzkrieg tactics, I like them very much as the german UU and I also like the name 'Panzer' (whatever they do with it in the translated german version of Civ3).

The question about the german golden age is in fact very difficult. I think, the highest overall prosperity existed in past-WW2-germany since the 1950s, but since the german 'Bundeswehr' is outclassed by most armies of other industrial nations it would be hard to find a UU for that aera.

In Civ3 there is no need for a 3rd Reich. Without the Nazis I think Germany could have had a real Golden Age in the middle of the 20th century, so for an alternative history in Civ3 the choice of the panzer might not be too bad.

As mentioned before, I like it!

Last edited by Der PH on 15-11-2001 at 14:21

	15-11-2001 14:59									#12
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Does the Teutonic Knight look really short to anybody else?

	15-11-2001 15:36									#13
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by SofaKing In respect to Germanic horder that scared the living daylights out of the Roman legions, how about the Beserker? It could either be a 2/1/1 unit for 10 shields, or perhaps a 3/1/1 for 20 shields. I think 3/1/1 makes more sense in order to equate them to Roman Legions. Also, since this would be an ancient era unit, I think it would be more useful than the panzer (earlier bonuses yield higher turn advantage). As for unit design, a warrior with his hair on fire (a commom Berserker image) would be pretty cool.

Technically, Berserkers aren't German, they're Germanic/Nordic peoples and they were hardly a civilization. Barbarians they were, but despite that, they had a complex religious and social system, but they had nothing compared to the complex infrastructure of the Romans or the Persians.

	15-11-2001 15:39									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by IncreduloDriver Does the Teutonic Knight look really short to anybody else?

Yes, he's a miniature model. Like those Warhammer Fantasy/40k copper/puter/clay models.

	15-11-2001 15:56									#15
	Panzer Model Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

First of all, Panzer is quite OK, since the models PzKw I through PzKw IV were all generally referred to as Panzer I through Panzer IV.

If it has to be a later model, like the Tiger (PzKW VI) or the Panther (PzKw V) I would REALLY suggest the Panther. The advantage of the German Panzer in this game is speed, and the Tiger was increadibly slow. The Panther otoh was quite maneuverable.

Still, the Russian T-34 series was generally even faster...

	15-11-2001 17:51									#16
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

While I'm glad my suggestion of using the Prussian infantrist as UU was adapted by a respected poster, I'm irritated it is accepted by so few people. One history person has told us the Prussian infantry of that age wasn'tthat superior, but we do know the Founder's Age is closer to a Golden Age than the 3rd Reich... and what would another trigger for the golden age be? I can't remember there are any major wonders of the world in Germany.. Bach's Cathedral maybe, and Koperinkus' observatory... are both in Civ3?

	15-11-2001 18:14									#17
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Thanks for the pix, MacTBone, even though they probably won't be needed anymore...

Frodo,
Thanks for correcting that. I suspected Panzer was a specific type but I wasn't sure. It at least developed into the German word for Tank over time...

Ecthelion,
I'm afraid the CSAs of the Germans are Scientific and Militaristic so I don't think those wonders (if they exist) would trigger the German Golden Age. Looks like Firaxis is really aiming at the 3rd Reich for Golden Age... (As with the Spanish UU, another fine example of history written by the victor )

	15-11-2001 20:07									#18
	V2 Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

just another idea: what about the V2 rocket used at the end of WW2. i dont know much about it but i think it was a unique technological advancement that time.

	15-11-2001 20:24									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I must agree that one main driver in CSU choice should be its effect about "Golden Age" timing.

OTOH, if you aren't rewriting history on a good earth map, you can consider german special unit without fear of a bad definition of "Golden Age"

If that the case, U-Boat did a devastating campaign, both for technical merits and for superior tactics, in WWII.

I'd like to point out that the real unique (no equivalent) weapon system during WWII that only German used was the V-1 / V-2 rocket/missile (as Aurel mention above).

I put both on the table because, while I know they where quite different, I suppose we can put one or the other in Civ III as better they fit existing rules and balancing.

For not dedicated reader (I already mentioned this in an old post) I remember V-1 was the first "concept" of modern cruise (conventional warhead) missile, while V-2 project is still very close to current available balistic missile like SCUD family (widely available with some customization in IRAQ, IRAN, China, Pakistan, etc.).

Of the two, V-1 should be interceptable by fighters in air-superiority mission, while the V-2 should be stopped only with an SDI advance.

No others country had similar weapons until they get secret projects and engineers teamwork from captured German laboratories and launch sites.

If the missile units doesn't fit with the Civ III limits, and U-Boot aren't good for large landmass random map, I suggest to keep Panzer but renaming them.

	15-11-2001 22:47									#20
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I've never gotten a golden age from a late-model UU yet! You always get one before that I find. The hard part for the Germans is a scientific wonder - perhaps Newton's is best. Military wonders are easy though; two very strong wonders, Sun-Tzu's and Womens' Suffrage, trigger for militarists.

Again, I just don't see a special strength to the infantry of the 1860s Prussian forces... They were certainly all that they should be, but for 1-1 superiority in troops its' best to look to Frederick the Great I think. It's in part the Prussian legend from that time that lends lustre to all subsequent German triumphs of arms.

	15-11-2001 22:53									#21
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Hey, we're also talking about halfway historical correctness here... so we should consider it might be wise to find a scientific or military wonder that was actually built in Germany

Without that, a golden age can only be triggered by the unit, or a wodner that historically doesn't belong to Germany... I know, historic realism is not all, but it should at least be possible to come halfway close t oreality in the game, at least with the civ you're playing as... well why don't we build wonders like "Big red house with yellows spots" but use decent institutions from he past? Because of realism, so get it sorted, Firaxis.

Either a new unique unit for Germany or a scientific or military wonder that you can find in Germany in the real world... apart from that...

But then, Copernicus' Observatory might be a solution... the poles would argue the man was Polish, and yes, he's of Polish heritage, but as far as I remember, he lived under citizenship of a German state, so

is Copernicus' Observatory in the game?

	15-11-2001 22:55									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...5614#post604792

	15-11-2001 23:09									#23
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion But then, Copernicus' Observatory might be a solution... the poles would argue the man was Polish, and yes, he's of Polish heritage, but as far as I remember, he lived under citizenship of a German state, so

Actually, if anything it was the other way around. The guy was a Polonised German (he spoke Polish etc.), but he was a subject of the Polish King.

Besides, how Copernicus' Observatory would be "Militaristic" is beyong me

	15-11-2001 23:14									#24
	Full PM-box? Change here!

And how a civ would only have one special characteristic is beyond me. The Germans are militaristic and scientific, and I'm actually asking for scientific or militaristic wonders.

And if you had ever played the game Civilization, you would know that Copernicus' Observatory is indeed a scientific wonder.

Before you treacherous person change your post, here is the relevant line:

quote: how Copernicus' Observatory would be "Militaristic" is beyong me

I don't bear responsibility for bad orthography, BTW.

	15-11-2001 23:20									#25
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion And how a civ would only have one special characteristic is beyond me. The Germans are militaristic and scientific, and I'm actually asking for scientific or militaristic wonders. And if you had ever played the game Civilization, you would know that Copernicus' Observatory is indeed a scientific wonder.

So I misunderstood you. I thought you were asking for a wonder than singlehandedly triggers GA for Germans. In that case the wonder would have to be both Scientific and Militaristic. Of course, now, Germans may indeed build both Copernicus' Observatory (which is Scientific) and some Militaristic wonder (like Sun Tzu or Great Wall) and get GA - only that, unlike Pyramids for Egyptians for example (which are Industrious and Religious at the same time), Germans would have to build BOTH to get GA. (And I have been playing Civilization for the last 2 weeks, btw)

quote: I don't bear responsibility for bad orthography, BTW.

Oh ha ha. Kill me for a typo

	15-11-2001 23:31									#26
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Oh well, I didn't even know both characteristics have to be served by the wodner

that means they do have to build either a 'foreign' wonder (historically inaccurate) or they give us a German wonder that serves both effects

Well, some others might argue that there can't be a wonder for each civ, but then most civs have decent unique units

as for the style of my response - I am quite.. 'vigilant' with your kind since some of your compatriots have been a pain on me lately...

My parents still studied in Poland!!

	15-11-2001 23:56									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion Oh well, I didn't even know both characteristics have to be served by the wodner that means they do have to build either a 'foreign' wonder (historically inaccurate) or they give us a German wonder that serves both effects Well, some others might argue that there can't be a wonder for each civ, but then most civs have decent unique units

Well, as a matter of fact, first time I learnt there were going to be 16 or so wonders and 16 civs, I thought each civ will get its own wonder - obviously it didn't

For example no wonder comes even close to be a wonder of Aztec or Indians - while Chichen Itza (perfect Militaristic and Religious wonder, as it was used to sacrifice captured enemies to the gods) or Taj Mahal (arguably Commercial and Religious - as it is a tomb and a great tourism attraction at the same time ) would both serve this purpose very well. It would be harder to find suitable wonders for Iroquis or Zulus (which brings us to the alltime question - are they really civs?) though, but it shouldn't be a problem with a bit of imagination.

Perhaps we could still revamp them all somehow.

quote: as for the style of my response - I am quite.. 'vigilant' with your kind since some of your compatriots have been a pain on me lately...

He he. Go Poland!

But seriously, I am perhaps a bit older (and a bit more moderate)

	16-11-2001 00:13									#28
	Remove this text

as long as you don't call me a Nazi just because I'm German I shouldn't mourn...

	16-11-2001 00:27									#29
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion as long as you don't call me a Nazi just because I'm German I shouldn't mourn...

LOL

(I hope you are not serious btw It would be bad if you thought I would feel that way about Germans )

	16-11-2001 00:31									#30
	Increase the size of your Attachments

some Polish polytubbies do