15-11-2001 04:37									#1
	Apolyton ExtraCivs Pack: Spanish Unique Unit Remove this text

As explained in the main discussion thread, we should decide on some of the Unique Units for the Apolyton ExtraCivs Pack ASAP so the graphics people can start working when they're ready. So that's what this thread is about : deciding what the Unique Unit of the Spanish should be. I think I picked the most logical choices but feel free to post alternatives (if 'Other' becomes very popular we could have a 'second round').

For each civ I added a very brief description to give an impresssion of the importance of each unit. Note that I had to make 20 odd descriptions for 5 threads so I didn't bother doing extensive research or anything, 95% of the info is from the top of my head. So it's quite possible I made some mistakes or left out vital information or whatever. I very much encourage others with more knowlegde and time to post more elaborate explanations and/or point out my mistakes (some pictures could be useful as well, esp. for the graphics people).


Explanations:
The Spanish Galleons were the massive Renaissance Age ships which Spain used to travel to the New World. They were generally much larger than English or Dutch vessels (their main adversaries) with many more cannons and in 1-on-1 'shout-outs' the Spanish would easily win (the English and Dutch ships had the advantage of speed and manouverability of course).

The Spanish Tercios were the infantry unit of the Kings of Spain in the 16th and 17th century. They combined the firepower of the harquebus (later the musket) with the pikes. The Tercios formed the elite forces of the Spanish monarchy. Contrary with others troops they fought only for one master, the King of Spain.

Conquistadors were the conquerors of the New World. They were elite warriors and extremely heavily armed. Small groups of these conquistadors could and did conquer entire (American) civilizations (though these victories weren't purely based on military might but relied on politics, diplomaty, mythology and diseases as well).

	15-11-2001 05:27									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I would add that French Musketeers fought for the king, too.

	15-11-2001 05:31									#3
	No Spain!!! Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I would also question the idea of including Spain in the game. Its cultural influence throughout history was not all that great, and their role as a major country was only very short.

If you want to add a civ, the Ottomans are really the ones missing!

	15-11-2001 05:44									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I'd go for galleon to have another naval civ since all of the choices you suggest are good ones.

	15-11-2001 06:08									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Well the question is, what would you make a unit once it's descided as far as power? I agree the unit should be some sort of early gunpowder infantry which was used during spain's golden age.

Musketmen are already 2/4/1.
French Musketeers are 3/4/1.

What logical extra would a Spainish unit get? 5 defense is too powerful. 3 attack is dedundant.

Its rough assigning special units that arent dedundant for so many civs......maybe thats why there are less in this one.

	15-11-2001 06:22									#6
	Suffering from ads?

I would make it the conquistador...a mounted musketeer. 5.2.2 perhaps?

	15-11-2001 06:26									#7
	Increase the size of your Attachments

give conq. 2/4/2 ... that'd be new

	15-11-2001 06:28									#8
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

2/4/2??

The conquistador was not a defensive unit in any way. Why a huge defensive stat and an offense comparable to the horseman? They used gunpowder!!

	15-11-2001 07:16									#9
	Conquistador or Tercio? Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

While the conquistador is an obvious sentimental favorite, what made Spain master of Europe in the 16th and early 17th century was the tercio, which gave them the greatest land army of the period. Perhaps make the tercio 2/5/1 musketman. This is a high defense yes, but the tercio was a mixture of pikemen and musketmen that worked together in intigrated units, finally beaten by better use of cavalry and artillery introduced by the Swedes in the 30 years war.
As for what a conquistador should be, a 3/4/2 mounted musket since they won with speed and superior firepower vs. the Inca and Aztec. This would be powerful units though, which is why tercio is better.

	15-11-2001 07:54									#10
	Increase Your PM Length

That means if it attacks fortified pikeman, it is much more likely to lose than win. How is that accurate??

	15-11-2001 08:07									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Hehe, guys lets not forget, #1 the special unit should replace a regular one! That means if you are gonna replace the musketman, you have to beat 2/4/1 (and not copy 3/4/1), or if you should replace cavalry 6/3/3. And #2 you can't downgrade a unit to the point where someone would want the regular unit you replace back.

Musketmen is the unit to replace in any case. Increase the movement, like suggested by someone earlier 2/4/2.

Although not representative of high attacking power......it does show how these units even in unfamilar terrain, manage to dictate the battle site so it works into their advantage.

	15-11-2001 08:15									#12
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris I would add that French Musketeers fought for the king, too.

civ3.com made it seem like the cardinal/bishop of whatever had an influence over them, too. it's just that he was in turn very loyal to the king

and the spanish have to go with the Conquistador, they cleared out some big native tribes for the crown to install the viceroys in mexico and peru. those were very good to the crown.

	15-11-2001 09:39									#13
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Realistically, the Conquistador should replace the Explorer. How about a 3/0/5 Explorer, with roadless movement like the explorer has...

	15-11-2001 12:48									#14
	Re: Conquistador or Tercio? Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by GePap While the conquistador is an obvious sentimental favorite, what made Spain master of Europe in the 16th and early 17th century was the tercio, which gave them the greatest land army of the period. Perhaps make the tercio 2/5/1 musketman. This is a high defense yes, but the tercio was a mixture of pikemen and musketmen that worked together in intigrated units, finally beaten by better use of cavalry and artillery introduced by the Swedes in the 30 years war.

The result of this poll is a bit disappointing. That's why I thank GePap for the above posting... Let's also add that the Tercios remained unbeaten for almost 150 years, i.e approx. half of the "very short period of Spain as a major country".

	15-11-2001 13:44									#15
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Yeah and if you let Europeans pick the american special unit they'd probably choose cowboy, so what's your point?

	15-11-2001 13:48									#16
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

And after writing that you dare to ask me what's my point?

	15-11-2001 13:55									#17
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

oh come on have some fun.

We will have a list of stereotypical special units.

The Japanese can have sucicide fighters, the Chinese can have teenaged AK47 mob, we can add mexicans can give them a 20 sheild settler, and we'll have good 'ole cowboys since that's what everyone over thinks its like here.

maybe civ would have been better if we enbraced the political incorrectness.

	15-11-2001 14:30									#19
	Re: No Spain!!! Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris I would also question the idea of including Spain in the game. Its cultural influence throughout history was not all that great, and their role as a major country was only very short.

Spain's cultural influence throughout history was not all that great???

Aah, I understand!
That's the reason for nearly all middle- and south-american nations to have Spanish as their native language!

	15-11-2001 17:24									#20
	Support Apolyton

I also think that should Firaxis add the Spanish, they'd put the Conquistador as their unique unit, and the Conquistador will surely win this poll, but I'd like to point out that, IMO, the historical Conquistadors don't realte to Civ units, but rather to Civ leaders.

So if we have Pizarro and Cortés as Spanish Great Leaders, we already have Conquistadors in the game, and we can have the Tercios as the Spanish unique unit.

	15-11-2001 17:27									#21
	Re: No Spain!!! Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris I would also question the idea of including Spain in the game. Its cultural influence throughout history was not all that great, and their role as a major country was only very short.

you MUST be joking.

	15-11-2001 17:34									#22
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Fiera I also think that should Firaxis add the Spanish, they'd put the Conquistador as their unique unit, and the Conquistador will surely win this poll, but I'd like to point out that, IMO, the historical Conquistadors don't realte to Civ units, but rather to Civ leaders. So if we have Pizarro and Cortés as Spanish Great Leaders, we already have Conquistadors in the game, and we can have the Tercios as the Spanish unique unit.

IMO, I'd say you hit the center of the nail The conquistador was not a particular type of soldier, the tercio was.
I was also expecting the conquistador to win this poll. What actually disappointed me was/is the very low number of votes for the tercios. We conducted a similar survey a few weeks ago over the Spanish Civ site Forum and the tercio won.

	15-11-2001 18:01									#23
	Re: Re: Conquistador or Tercio? Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Jay Bee The result of this poll is a bit disappointing.

I feel you, Jay Bee. But I guess that's the irony of history: it's always written by the victor and Spain is not among present-day's victors... Well, if it's any comfort, I *did* vote for the Tercios

	15-11-2001 18:06									#24
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Thanks Locutus Conquistadors were also Tercios after all

	15-11-2001 19:08									#25
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Probably the reason for these voting results is that everybody knows the Conquistadors in opposition to the tercio. At least I heard this name for the first time reading this thread.

BTW I voted for the galleon, a huge transport vessel with high defensive power, that allows extensive invasions from the sea.

	15-11-2001 19:45									#26
	Re: No Spain!!! Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris I would also question the idea of including Spain in the game. Its cultural influence throughout history was not all that great, and their role as a major country was only very short.

Wow. What a BS

	15-11-2001 20:47									#27
	Full PM-box? Change here!

hehe. Spanish. No cultural influence. hehe

	15-11-2001 21:58									#28
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

How about some kind of increased Galleon or Frigate? Maybe a Galleon with increased movement and carrying capacity (to reflect the great achievements of the Spanish in exploration) or a more powerful Frigate (Spanish Armada)?

	15-11-2001 22:00									#29
	Re: No Spain!!! Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris I would also question the idea of including Spain in the game. Its cultural influence throughout history was not all that great, and their role as a major country was only very short. If you want to add a civ, the Ottomans are really the ones missing!

Yes, It's well known that the Ottomans were much more powerful than spanish civ... ha, ha, ha, You're very funny!!!

Well, I prefer the 'tercio' special unit, even a special naval unit would be fine too.
The 'tercio' were units used to fight far away from home, but I don't know how could this capability be represented. May be no support cost (just an idea).

	15-11-2001 23:43									#30
	Re: No Spain!!! Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris I would also question the idea of including Spain in the game. Its cultural influence throughout history was not all that great, and their role as a major country was only very short. If you want to add a civ, the Ottomans are really the ones missing!