15-11-2001 05:11									#1
	Apolyton ExtraCivs Pack: Arab Unique Unit Support Apolyton

As explained in the main discussion thread, we should decide on some of the Unique Units for the Apolyton ExtraCivs Pack ASAP so the graphics people can start working when they're ready. So that's what this thread is about : deciding what the Unique Unit of the Arabs should be. I think I picked the most logical choices but feel free to post alternatives (if 'Other' becomes very popular we could have a 'second round').

For each civ I added a very brief description to give an impresssion of the importance of each unit. Note that I had to make 20 odd descriptions for 5 threads so I didn't bother doing extensive research or anything, 95% of the info is from the top of my head. So it's quite possible I made some mistakes or left out vital information or whatever. I very much encourage others with more knowlegde and time to post more elaborate explanations and/or point out my mistakes (some pictures could be useful as well, esp. for the graphics people).



Explanations:
The Dervishes were extremely religious people from Sudan. They were also excellent warriors and fought on horseback, camelback or foot (but the cavalrymen are most famous). They opposed any kind of penetration of European powers in the Arab world or Africa and fought these penetrations fanatically.

The Xebec and the Dhow were the naval vessels that formed the basis of the Arab fleet. The Saracens were good navigators and the Xebec formed the basis for their extensive sea-trade network (though probably not as extensive as their land-trade network).

The Mameluke were North African troops that were used by the Arabs to fight the Mongol and Turkic invasion forces. They were fierce and experienced warriors and the Mamelukes were one of the few armies to actually defeat the Mongols in combat. Like the Mongols, the majority of the Mameluke forces were cavalry (but in AoK a Camel unit was used to represent them).

Camels were used frequently by the Arabs in combat. They were fast and light but could be well armoured and were thus excellent units for raiding.

	15-11-2001 05:30									#2
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Would a UU called Terrorist be out of line? It could be a modern era unit 16/1/1.

	15-11-2001 06:16									#3
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Camel Raider, we don't want to make this an AoE: AoK rip off...

Replaces Knight...4.2.2?

	15-11-2001 06:23									#4
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quote: Would a UU called Terrorist be out of line? It could be a modern era unit 16/1/1.

Yes, and then we could make a new one for the Americans and call it "Bush" and give it 1/16/1 just to make it interesting, or maybe that would be unfair considering defense bonuses

	15-11-2001 06:25									#5
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quote: Originally posted by SofaKing Would a UU called Terrorist be out of line? It could be a modern era unit 16/1/1.

NOT amusing at all asshole

	15-11-2001 06:37									#6
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suicide bomber.

	15-11-2001 06:47									#7
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you are a moron.

	15-11-2001 07:26									#8
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First of all, no need to make snide and insulting comments about other civs (why do you play the game?) Keep this sort of stupid things to yourself and out of our forum

I don't think any of the units offered makes much sense. Mamlukes are good, but that would place the Arab golden Age in the late Middle Ages while their Golden Age was in the Early middle ages- I would ask for those that Know what the early Arab armies or those of the Caliphate of Bagdhad were composed of mainly?

	15-11-2001 07:34									#9
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It's gotta be the camel, they took over all of Northern Africa and Spain with them...wasn't until Tours that they were really stopped. Definitely early middle age golden age, definitely the Camel

	15-11-2001 08:06									#10
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from the clancy novels i read i get the feeling the ancient arabs were big on getting on a horse and chasing another guy on a horse with a big sword.

that's more or less what he said was their "legacy" (fighting wise)



he was talking about how it's hard to get them to work as a modern cavalry(sp?) unit because they have a loner warrior tradition

	15-11-2001 08:18									#11
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quote: Originally posted by orange It's gotta be the camel, they took over all of Northern Africa and Spain with them...wasn't until Tours that they were really stopped. Definitely early middle age golden age, definitely the Camel

Arabs were consumate Light Horsemen, they were known for their *fast* horses ... those are what were the bulk of the cavalry arms of their Armies .... Camels, in addition to being unruly beasts, are uselss in actual combat and the terrain in North Africa and Spain would favor Horses over Camelry. Can someone point me to a source quoting the extensive use of Camels in Medieval Arabian warfare ... ? (I grew up there and was exposed to their history ... so ...)

Suggest Light Horseunit with +1 move, +1 def (due to speed\maneuver).

Dervishes are more religious than cultural UU - not a good idea in any circumstance (that would be like having a Crusader unit for the English).

Mamelukes would be a second vote, but they're nothing more special than swordsmen IMO ...

be0wulfe

	15-11-2001 08:27									#12
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The armies of the Jihad:

www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/gabrmetz/gabr0016.htm

	15-11-2001 08:50									#13
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I stand corrected then ... interesting what you're taught, guess we got the romanticized version.

Still say camels are foul beasts.

Even if they can do complex math in their heads

	15-11-2001 10:54									#14
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Whatever the Arab UU is, it should have +1 movement. During the Crusades and early expansion, speed and hit-and-run raids were the only advantage the soldiers had (except for Fanatacism but the Europeans/Crusaders had that too). I think it should replace the horsemen personally because replacing the Knight would make it too strong.

	15-11-2001 14:38									#15
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If it's a camel unit, I want it to get att/def bonuses when fighting in a desert square.

A small correction to description of Mamelukes - they had a Sultanate based in Egypt for some time, but they were mostly Cuman/Kipchak, Circassian or other Caucasian slave warriors, not North African. Baybars al-Bunduqdari, one of the most famous Mameluke Sultans whom I suggested as a great leader, was Kipchak.

	15-11-2001 18:24									#16
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Arabs, I really think, were using cavalry more than camels. They had espescially good horses.

	15-11-2001 18:35									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Mongoloid Cow Whatever the Arab UU is, it should have +1 movement. During the Crusades and early expansion, speed and hit-and-run raids were the only advantage the soldiers had (except for Fanatacism but the Europeans/Crusaders had that too). I think it should replace the horsemen personally because replacing the Knight would make it too strong.

I agree.

Trifna,
True, but Arab cavalry wasn't exactly unique, their camelry was (well, almost anyway).

	15-11-2001 20:29									#18
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How about a modern unit for the Arabs? Something similar to the zealot in CivII...a cheap foot infantry unit who's strength would be numbers. That's my vote.

	15-11-2001 21:50									#19
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What about mameluke walking soldiers instead of mounted ones?

	15-11-2001 23:20									#20
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I think Arabs should receive a unique naval unit. They were very strong at the sea. Maybe an old unit with +1 mov?

	16-11-2001 02:23									#21
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Currently sea units are not used that often early in the game and they are not very powerfull, plus if you played on a world with large continents, such a unit would help you little. We should remember that the Arabs, as strong as they were at sea, created a continiuos land empire, not an overseas one.

	16-11-2001 03:51									#22
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Armoured camels???

Fast light cavalry seems right - could they be made stealthy?

	16-11-2001 03:51									#23
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I would say it should be like a horse man (2/1/2), only it doesn't require horses to build and only cost 25 shields instead of 30.

	16-11-2001 04:02									#24
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i would like to have a bunch of usless camels to exterminate

seriously.... : camel

	16-11-2001 06:19									#25
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a camel unit should not be 2.1.2 That would only make it suitable for the ancient time period, and this is simply not so. 4.2.2 gives it the attack needed to defeat spearman, swordsman, and a chance against hoplites. Pikemen would be effective against them, which seems accurate to me, and if attacked by horsemen it would be close to an even match, which also seems correct.

	16-11-2001 08:04									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Mankind i would like to have a bunch of usless camels to exterminate seriously.... : camel

Britain in WWII:

'Camels are ideal for the desert, they can carry heavy loads for long distances without food and water. However, they cannot cope with temperatures below zero.
In World War Two, the camels aided transport in Eritea and Somaliland, and the small Somaliland Camel Corps successfully kept an invading force of Italian artillery and tanks at bay until reinforcements arrived.'


French Saharian Troops
'The Goum was like an old west posse. It was quickly assembled in response to a raid or before setting out on an expedition of conquest. The Arab Bureau Officer would call upon Arab caids to furnish men. The willingness of the Arabs to cooperate depended on the personal and political relationship between the caid and the officer. The Goumiers were mounted on horses or camels. They could range for hundreds of miles, far beyond the capabilities of Europeans or gular native troops. '

The Jihad:

'The Byzantines’ preoccupation with the Sassanians diverted their attention away from what was happening in the Arabian desert. For countless years marauding Bedouin tribesmen had periodically staged raids to the north. What was new, however, was that the Arabs who swept northward on horse and camel-back were now united by a common faith, that of Islam. It took the Arabs only ten years to fully dismantle Byzantine control over the lands of Jordan, Palestine and Syria. '

Go camels.

	27-11-2001 14:02									#27
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quote: Originally posted by SofaKing Would a UU called Terrorist be out of line? It could be a modern era unit 16/1/1.

this just shows the ignorance of most people.

	27-11-2001 14:03									#28
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quote: Originally posted by ElitePersian this just shows the ignorance and idiocy of most people.

	01-12-2001 06:48									#29
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If you want a hit-and-run unit, and one the Arabs are known for, there's really only one choice.

The Assassin!

would function as a fast swordsman. Persians get attack, Romans get defense, Arabs would get speed.

	01-12-2001 06:55									#30
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quote: Originally posted by orange you are a moron.

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