05-01-2001 23:08									#1
	Thirty Years' War by Tony DeNucci; Second Playtest Version!!!! Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Okay, I have made some changes from the first playtest version to the second one. Thanks to everyone that helped me make this scenario a possibility, you will be given "props" in the readme file with the final completed verison.

Click HERE to download the second playtest version.

For everyone that tests this out please post your comments here, and if there are any problems DLing the file just post here and I will send it via E-Mail, thank you for your time.

The Cap'

	06-01-2001 00:04									#2
	Remove this text

Just downloaded it. Haven´t played yet, but here are some general thoughts:

-You should include a readme file that contains a description of the scenario, the objectives and the credits
-you should include a pedia.txt (without it, the standard civ2 civilopedia with the wrong descriptions will pop up)
-Artwork looks good, like the units, sounds are great
-Why is the events file so small? You have enough space for more (more events = more fun)
-perhaps you should put the sounds in a separate Zipfile
-the Zip contains two titles, only the Titke.GIF is needed

Ok, I´ll give more comments when I have played, but I can´t promise that, because I have to finish my own scenario...

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Civ2000

	06-01-2001 04:29									#3
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Okay, I didn't include a readme or pedia because that is going to be in the final polished version, but I might as well give a run down of the situation previous to the war so people know why/who they are fighting....

On May 23rd, 1618 the citizens of Prague took it upon themselves to throw the Habsburg family from their lands. This marked the tenth rebellion in the duchy of Bohemia within the past nine years. Originally the Habsburg family (which was comprised of devout Catholics) forged a compact with the people of Bohemia, the pact stated that the Bohemians would be free to worship whatever religion they wished, and despite the fact that 66% of Bohemia was in fact Catholic, they were still very proud of their religious tolerance.

When the Archbishop of Prague decided it was time to force Catholicism on the people of Bohemia, they locked the Bohemian assembly from the city hall, and began to force Catholicism on the city. Outraged, Bohemian peasants stormed the governor's mansion throwing two members of the Habsburg family from a second story window (neither died) along with two of their officials. The king of Austria Ferdinand, who was also next in line to become the Holy Roman Emperor, decided he would send troops into the area to put the revolt down. The lords of Bohemia went to the Prussians, Brandenburgs, and Transylvanians for help, all of them obliged under the command of King Frederick V of Prussia.

Meanwhile, the Habsburg Empire grew stronger, consolidating power in the Rhine Valley, Italy, Spain and Germany. The kingdoms of Germany convened in the Palatine in order to forge an alliance that would free Germany from the grips of the Habsburg's Holy Roman Empire. Thus formed the Protestant Union.

At around this same time, Poland and Sweden ended a war that resulted in Sweden's control of Estonia and Finland, while Poland seized much of Russia and the Ukraine, tensions ran high between these two Batlic powers, both wanted full control of the important northern sea.

France was growing stronger, but were emersed in internal combat. The Huguenots were fighting strong in western France, surrounding the city of La Rochelle. The Bourbon kings were meeting with Louis trying to iron out some sort of way to keep France unified. The last thing France wanted was a stronger House of Habsburg, they were also allied with Sweden.

The merchant states of Italy (Genoa, Savoy, and the Republic of Venice) decided that if they were divided as usual, the Habsburgs would overrun them, securing Italy for thier own. As France was too busy to protect them, they went to the Netherlands and Britain in order to protect their collective interests. A powerful trade pact was forged in the Savoy city of Lyons, the League of Lyons served as a major trade pact, but it would soon become a military pact.

All of these events, including the continueing battles between Spain and the Netherlands came to a head in 1618, as the mere revolt in Prague sparked the wick that exploded into the Thirty Years' War....

	06-01-2001 04:43									#4
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Stop, stop , stop, I surrender

I would only mention the readme, because I´ve seen some scns where the creators have forgotten it...

BTW, it´s for MGE, isn´t it? I tried to start it, but I have FW, so I received an error. I´ll try to convert it to FW with the CivConverter, hope it works .



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Civ2000

	06-01-2001 06:11									#5
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Nitpicker's note:

quote: the Habsburg Empire grew stronger, consolidating power in the Rhine Valley, Italy, Spain and Germany

In 1618 Spain had long ceased to be part of the Habsburg Empire, if a thing called like that ever existed

BeBro, what's the Civ converter? I've been absent a lot of time and missed that prodigy

	06-01-2001 06:19									#6
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Its funny that someone from the Spanish Civ II site would not know the history of Spain.

During the Thirty Years' War the king of Spain was a Habsburg and was allied with the Habsburgs when fighting in the Thirty Years' War.

I believe they teach about the Spanish and Austrian Habsburgs in High School history, but I could be mistaken.

I am VERY sure that the Habsburg dynasty was in power within Spain during the Thirty Years' War.

	06-01-2001 07:13									#7
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

My Balti-moron friend, what's really funny is that somebody who is trying to do a meaningful Thirty Years War scenario does not know that Spain was not a part of the "Habsburg Empire" at that time. What do you understand by "Habsburg Empire"? Maybe that is the root of the problem.

That an Habsburg king was in power in 1618 in Spain does not mean at all that Spain was part of an "Habsburg Empire". England and The Netherlands allied against Spain in that epoch and they never formed part of a common empire, nation or whatever.

Spain and Austria were united ONLY from 1516 to 1556, when HR Emperor Charles V (Charles I of Spain) received the crown of Spain from the hands of his mother Juana I of Castile.

When Charles I retired in 1556 he split his empire between his son and his nephew. Do you know why Charles I did that? Several reasons. The two most important were that the interests of Spain and Austria were radically distinct and, more importantly, because the German electors requested it so.

Of course that Spain and Austria were bound by family pacts, just in the same way that Bourbon Spain was bound to France by similar family pacts later in history. But an alliance between two countries does not mean that they are the same, which was my only point.

So, when the teacher was talking about the Habsburgs in High School you were probably outside chasing after some petite blonde, right?


____
Another nitpicker's note, this time about your scen itself; Where did you get the Habsburg flag from? This is the Spanish Habsburg flag:

Background changed sometimes to yellow or light red (see Allard's Dutch Golden Age scenario)


Oops, another one, Aragon is not a city.

	06-01-2001 07:19									#8
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Wow, JayBee, you really rip to shreds. I want you to critique my scenario in a couple days when I'm done with it. Just make sure you play it too and test whether its fun, not just accurate!

	06-01-2001 17:06									#9
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Jay Bee, the MGEConverter (real name) is a little tool made by Angelo Scotto. I don´t remember from where I downloaded it, but perhaps its in the Apolyton database?

You can drag a MGE scn file on it to convert the scenario to FW. Works with many scenarios, you only have to look if the events.txt of the MGE scenario is to big for FW, than you have to split up the events in several parts, or delete them

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Civ2000

	06-01-2001 17:12									#10
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Just converted your scn to FW, Capo, works well

I converted the file tyw.scn, what is the file start.sav?

There is a problem with your title.gif, I think it doesn´t use the correct civ2 palette, so it looks weird when the scenario starts. I can try to fix it for you, ok?

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Civ2000

	06-01-2001 19:54									#11
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Not only cities are cities in this game, I made the Principality of Orange a city when it wasn't a city. Upper and Lower Palatine are cities when they arent, and White Mountain is a city when it isn't one. They are meant as objectives, or possibly battle sites.

The flag I used was not the flag of the Spanish Habsburgs, it was the flag of the Austrian Habsburgs during the TYW, used by the military.

	06-01-2001 20:02									#12
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There are only seven available nations in civ, during the Thirty Years war there were so many....

The Turks
Austria
Spain
France
Denmark
Sweden
Poland
Prussia
Brandenburg
Bohemia
Transylvania
The Netherlands
Genoa
Kingdom of Savoy
Switzerland
Republic of Venice
The Papal States
Britain

So I had to figure out how to fit all of these nations together, so I looked through the history books and first looked at alliances.

After the first year of war Denmark went into an alliance with Sweden in which they basically became Sweden's puppets, therefore I lumped them together.

The Republic of Venice, GEnoa, Papal States, Savoy, Nehterlands and Britain formed an alliance to further trade and curb Habsburg power, so they were lumped into the League of Lyons.

Since Transylvania, Bohemia, Brandenburg and Prussia were all lead by members of the same family, who gave Frederick command of their armies during this time, they were lumped together in the Prussian stack.

Since Spain's forces were under Austrian command, while Spain had numerous generals, and Austria and Spain were allied to the point that they would have NEVER broken up, and always have been at war with mutual enemies there is no reason not to combine the two. Not only that but the Habsburg family convened with eachother to create plans. Even their American colonies were collusive, was not Maximillian the governor of Mexico? Maximillian was Austrian.

The Poles and French get to be the only civ that wasn't lumped with another because of their political situation.

I hated making the Turks Barbarians....

I researched this war heavily, all of the battles, the roads, city sizes, the state of nations at the start of the war.

Thanks for the suggestions, how was the game itself?

	06-01-2001 20:04									#13
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There are only seven available nations in civ, during the Thirty Years war there were so many....

The Turks
Austria
Spain
France
Denmark
Sweden
Poland
Prussia
Brandenburg
Bohemia
Transylvania
The Netherlands
Genoa
Kingdom of Savoy
Switzerland
Republic of Venice
The Papal States
Britain

So I had to figure out how to fit all of these nations together, so I looked through the history books and first looked at alliances.

After the first year of war Denmark went into an alliance with Sweden in which they basically became Sweden's puppets, therefore I lumped them together.

The Republic of Venice, GEnoa, Papal States, Savoy, Nehterlands and Britain formed an alliance to further trade and curb Habsburg power, so they were lumped into the League of Lyons.

Since Transylvania, Bohemia, Brandenburg and Prussia were all lead by members of the same family, who gave Frederick command of their armies during this time, they were lumped together in the Prussian stack.

Since Spain's forces were under Austrian command, while Spain had numerous generals, and Austria and Spain were allied to the point that they would have NEVER broken up, and always have been at war with mutual enemies there is no reason not to combine the two. Not only that but the Habsburg family convened with eachother to create plans. Even their American colonies were collusive, was not Maximillian the governor of Mexico? Maximillian was Austrian.

The Poles and French get to be the only civ that wasn't lumped with another because of their political situation.

I hated making the Turks Barbarians....

I researched this war heavily, all of the battles, the roads, city sizes, the state of nations at the start of the war.

Thanks for the suggestions, how was the game itself?

	06-01-2001 20:22									#14
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Chronological note;

Maximillian I of Mexico; 1860-1865.

Thirty Years War; 1618-1648

Salutations,
Exile

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Lost in America
"a freaking mastermind." --Stefu
"or a very good liar." --Stefu

	06-01-2001 21:53									#15
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Looks interesting....


[This message has been edited by Athena (edited January 06, 2001).]

	06-01-2001 21:55									#16
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JB: Click HERE to download the MGE Converter.

	08-01-2001 00:29									#17
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"After the first year of war Denmark went into an alliance with Sweden in which they basically became Sweden's puppets, therefore I lumped them together."

Where did you get that information from?
Sweden and Denmark where rivaling almost constantly during this war! Part of the reason to why the swedes entered the war was to mark that they where now the dominating Great Power in Scandinavia and that Denmark had played it's role. As late as 1643 the swedes invaded Denmark from the south in what was thought out to be something like the modern day blitzkrieg. At this time Sweden and Denmark where archrivals (much like Germany vs. France in the 19th century, or like the Imperials (Spain and Austrians) vs. France). Now I'm pretty sure of this since I have allways been very intrested in the world during the 17th century. I might be wrong (not about the rivalry but about this supposed alliance) but I strongly doubt it.

	08-01-2001 21:10									#18
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You are right about what you said, but you are forgetting a few things....

During the thirty years war an alliance was created between the Swedes, Danes and the Prussian lead effort against the Habsburgs.

Christian IV and Gustav Adolphus made cessions to eachother in order for this thing to go down properly, despite their rivalry.

They both did this for the good of Protestantism, it wasn't that they were friends, it was that they wanted the same thing, just for differant ends. i.e. their respective glory.

True after around 1640 they went back to war with eachother, but this is about the main conflict and I don't really want to include the beginning of Danish-Swedish rivalry at the end just for historic purposes.

I could however, put the Danes with the Independant alliance. But during the TYW the Danes and Swedes were involved in too many things together; Danish and Swede forces fought against Wallenstein in Streslau together, despite their hatred. They both took on the Poles side by side despite their hatred. It was more or less, we dislike you guys, but we hate the others together, almost a disgusting friendly rivalry between the Scandinavians.

I am more or less focusing on this struggle than creating an all out 1700s Europe scenario. The reason I called Denmark a puppet state was that during the war they were financially dependant on Sweden and her large purse. And thus went along with much of Sweden's battle plans.

Thoughts?

However, like I said before, thanks for pointing out my errors, I want everyone to really lay it on me.

	09-01-2001 11:58									#19
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Denmark dependent of Swedens economy, thats funny (but probably true). Sweden was financialy dependent of France during large parts of this war. Also saying that they united for the protestant cause may be stretching the thrut a little, Sweden and Denmark entered the war to gain land from the Imperials. They entered becouse they where almost sure of succes (the Imperial army was very old and made almost no use of the new tactics/weapons developed). Another interesting thing is that in the begining of the war Spains army of 20000 men was seen as an enormous force almost invincible. But when the thirty years war ended a "normal" army would have atleast 200000 men in it. Another thing about the readme (hate to complain this much but as you said... ) you say that Sweden aquired Finland from Poland but that's not the case. Finland had belonged to sweden since the 11th century (when the swedes "converted" Finland to Cristinanity) and the war was one of succesion: The Polish king Sigismund claimed to the Swedish crown, the Swedish nobility rebeled under the Duke Karl (who was crowned Karl IX), and when Karl IX died his son Gustav II Adolf continued the war against Sigismund. Sweden ended up obtaining Estonia but not Finland since it had belonged to Sweden al the time. Also it was thanks to the experience obtained in this war that the Swedes won so many early Victorys against the imperials.
[This message has been edited by Henrik (edited January 09, 2001).]

	09-01-2001 19:06									#20
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Also about the Swedish-Danish war in 1640, what if you created some barbarian/independent units in Denmark making the Swedes fight them and thus force them to whitdraw thier armies from German soil, good idea? Also the scenario crahses on my computer, I had the same problem whit"Holy Roman Empire" and "Charlamange". All other scenarios run just fine (and I have downloaded many scenarios (my scenario folder is 500meg.)) So the question is what do these scenarios and your scenario have in common?
[This message has been edited by Henrik (edited January 09, 2001).]

	10-01-2001 07:23									#21
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I must admit, I was confused as to what went down with Sweden and Poland before the war, I just knew Finland was an issue.

Despite that fact, I didn't mean to write what I wrote, what I mean to say was that the war between Poland and Sweden was the result of x and y territories. I am sorry again, this won't be the final readme.

I don't know what else to say to everyone that still thinks I am wrong, I have read numerous books on this, all published at either reputible universties (around the world) or be reputible authors (from around the globe as well). I am quite sure I have my facts straight, I am VERY sure the flags are all correct. The game crashes for me too, I will try and fix this, if you can try and play around it.

The next playtest should be out in up to two weeks.

	10-01-2001 20:27									#22
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What did you think of my Idea about the Swedish-Danish war (creating barbarians in denmark). This would take away swedish prescence from the war for a couple of turns, simulating a war between Sweden and Denmark.

	12-01-2001 00:51									#23
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I have now looked at the earlier postings you made and in those you talk about having several scenarios (one for swedes another for the french, etc, etc)
What ever happened to that?

Also I wonder:
What do you mean by playing around the crash, the game crashes as soon as I load the scenario (just as it does when I try to load Holy Roman Empire and Charlamange)!

I found a way to work around whats wrong, it must be in one of the graphic files, becouse when I removed them everything worked fine, but I do want to use them. I will experiment a little furthur by adding removing files from the directory to see whats making the scenario crash on my comp.)
I have a suspicion about them all being in .bmp format could have something to do with it.
(Edit: I was right in my suspicion, when I converted them to gifs everything went on smothly)
[This message has been edited by Henrik (edited January 12, 2001).]

	12-01-2001 09:30									#24
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It crashes for me after a civ discovers Equestrian tact, the reason I didn't make seperate Scenarios is because I want to finish this one ASAP so people know that I am serious, the reason it is called TYW V. 1.1 and so on, is because after I get "known" a little better, and based on the scenarios I intend on creating I probably will, I am going to create TYW v. 2 which will be a real good one, with seperate scenarios for EACH nation, focusing on specific facets of the war, including the original and revised general scenarios.

That's the real reason why, but I wanted it to be a surprise.... alas....

	12-01-2001 19:53									#25
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Im sorry to have spoiled the surprise.

	12-01-2001 19:54									#26
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Im sorry to have spoiled the surprise.

	12-01-2001 20:03									#27
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You must really be sorry, because you posted it twice.

	12-01-2001 21:28									#28
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I little critique now that I can play the scenario (you said we should be picky):
The rescorces on the map seems to be a little out of place: Silk? Buffalo? You might want to change the Oil into something more usefull too (It was not used to much except for lamps at this time).

Also the swedish city names are a bit old (this could be intended to enhance the feeling of the scenario, in that case it's good). Calmar, Wisby and Luna are nowadays rather called Kalmar Visby and (Luna? there is a city called Lund but that is more close to Malmö). Again if this was intended it's good otherwise you decide.

Another thing I am curiuos of is:
Why not give the civs trade (or what ever you want to rename it to) so that you can see which citys are objectives and which ones aren't.
Are there any Major Objectives in the scenario? They won't count for me if there are since I have MGE. If you aren't using major objectives then why are Oslo an objective while Copenhagen, Stockholm and Göteborg aren't? Stockholm wasn't of that great importance becides beeing the capital (you made Paris. London, Madrid, Vienna and even Moscow Objectives) but Göteborg and Copenhagen should defenetly be objectives. (Göteborg was the only port to the west that Sweden had and it was also the port that all Swedish colonial expeditions used, Swedens collony was bordering Niew Amsterdam and while the collonies where pretty evenly matched in millitary power the Dutch reinforcements arrived before the Swedish (who was delayed on the way) and Holland conquered the Swedish collony of New Sweden. My point being that Göteborg (or Gothenburg) was a very lucrative trade port).
[This message has been edited by Henrik (edited January 12, 2001).]

	12-01-2001 23:07									#29
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I didn´t know that it was ready??

write an email next time, I´ll send my comments soon

	12-01-2001 23:21									#30
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Also why is there only a cease fire between Sweden and the Protestants? The Swedes where protestants themselves and they entered the war on the protestants side.
Was Stralsund ('cuz thats what I figure Strelsun mean) really a protestant state?