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jimb0v2
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hence why this tournament is not really a tournament, but rather just some guys posting scores.
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jimb0v2
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comrade, your story is the reason why this tourament can never truly be a tournament, because say a legitimate person did get a settler and iron working as there first 2 huts. they pretty much auto win vs you. The whole point of a tournament like this is to have a control and then to try and use the same recources as everyone else to do teh best you can. But the random elements of battles and huts don't allow this. Theres always just the chance that a person will win a bunch of battles that you don't or that he will find much better stuff in his huts than you do.
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smellymummy
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fantastic map! made this to be a cool game... pangea's are usually neat like that i guess.
I got 2072 points, space ship victory at 1780'ish. No military action taken at all except at the begining while exploring, I harrased the zulus (which eventually doomed them).
I never went for the iron, and only found a use for it for railroads. At that point I had gained a city by culture from the AI that had iron. I gained a whole bunch of cities through cultures...
The end game was nice, the technology was entirely dominated by me. I was in modern age while my oponents were still trying to research corporation. Eventually I capitulated and sold tech to allow selling off the extra aluminium I had.
Had time to build tons of nukes, bombers, tanks, artilery etc. I could of taken many cities on this last turn, but I doubt I'll try.
No save->reload at all, but I did save often (i'm getting to many corrupt autosaves so I save myself often). Surprised I only got 2000 and change of points. Guess that's what happens when you don't go for total domination.
btw corruption wasn't a problem, and I didn't even build a FP. I went right away for a main 9 cities grid with a centralized palace.
now, I need another tourney map 
 Attachment: beforelaunch.zip
This has been downloaded 62 time(s).
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Dog of Justice
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The posted file was the turn I won, rather than the turn before it.
*later edit: deleted attachment because it's from before my final battle*
Last edited by Dog of Justice on 24-11-2001 at 16:21
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Dog of Justice
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I will state directly that I'm definitely not the best Civ player here, or near it for that matter. My regular strategy is far too perfectionist (in the sense of developing good cities instead of the higher-scoring and more-effective-versus-humans despotic conquest). Though, ironically, I may use this map to refine my regular strategy, since I have such a large set of results to compare to, and people are more or less distinguishing which results are without saving/reloading and without the huge early game swings like 3900 BC settler.
The game definitely has a different flavor when played once through versus played with any form of reloading at all. The latter controls for luck, but alas, also controls out most of the skill involved as well. The former is obviously the fairer way to hold the tournament, but Aeson is probably correct when he suggests that the winner would then probably be the guy with the 3900 BC settler. This is at least an important issue as the unenforceability regarding the save/reload cheat (which an "honor code" can handle reasonably well, I think); early huge swings must be essentially eliminated from any tournament game, so as to not block out the effects of true skill.
There are two ways I see to do this. One is to impose specific game rules, such as "settlers generated by huts must be disbanded immediately". The other is to let each tournament run at least two or three games, so that a single early lucky break has a chance to be averaged out.
In the meantime, I'll comment that establishing separate win categories does not deal with either of these issues (extreme swings due to early luck, and the enormous advantage provided by any amount of replaying). As others have already remarked, it would not be difficult to parlay a 1375 BC almost-conquered-the-world position into an early victory of almost any other type.
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Dog of Justice
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I think Monarch may be a good level to hold the next tournament at. The game designers themselves have commented that Monarch is the fairest level, providing the AI some bonuses but none of them insurmountable. Any reasonable style of victory should still be possible, and less optimal players (like myself, when I don't have my save/reload crutch ) should still be able to win.
I do NOT think a Deity tournament scenario would be a good idea. All the early results indicate that you MUST rush to win on Deity, while on lower difficulties you may need to rush to get the highest score, but you can still win the game without rushing. I hope the patch modifies Emperor/Deity AI to expand a bit less and build significantly better defenses, to reduce the disproportionate effectiveness of rushing.
On another note, someone asked if I used only Bowmen. Essentially yes, except for a few Catapults (only one of which saw action, actually; but it was where it counted most, Greece), two Horsemen (Shanghai was the only city I had with access to Horses for almost the entire game; and in the meantime, both Horsemen also were used against Greece, though in this case the respawned version), and one Swordsman (Memphis was built on top of an Iron deposit, so I figured what the heck; hey, a Swordsman doesn't cost any more than a Bowman when you're pop-rushing, and Memphis had far too much corruption to do anything other than pop-rush).
Finally, a gratuitous game balance comment: what were the game designers thinking when they made the first population unit worth up to 39 shields when pop-rushing? Admittedly, pop-rushing is STILL broken even if that number went down to 19; but 39 is ridiculous. I suspect it really needs to be 9 for the first population unit, and 10 for every subsequent one. The unhappiness interval, which no powergamer cares about, can probably be halved as well.
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Skanky Burns
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Skanky Bastard Quartermaster
Aug 2001
time: 14:16
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Well, i finished by spaceship victory in 1860
My score was 2265
I didnt start out very well, only grabbing a few cities via culture, not founding too many. Romans declared war on me early, but i got Persia to declare war on them, and Persia got everyone else to declare war on them too  They didnt last too long. This had the unfortunate effect of allowing Greece to be a super-power, gaining half the map.
I survived up until the 1700's, first in tech and culture, selling to the others. Until Greece decided that wasnt good enough, and attempted to crush me. Due to a distinct lack of saltpeter, i was forced into the defensive, but managed to hold my own with those nifty Infantry units i had just discovered (and were pumping out like crazy). Persia, who were also fairly large decided to get in on the action too, and declared war.
I had been trading with them for saltpeter, and built 7 cavalry before the agreement was cut short by war, so i used these to capture a city near saltpeter. The city fell, but wasnt close enough. Unfortunately i had also run out of cavalry, the few left were for home defence (both of them  )
Eventually, i discovered how to build tanks. After mobilizing, almost every city was producing tanks, and the Persians eventually fell, followed by Greece. In one battle, i managed to destroy all 30+ cavalry that had invaded my territory, and that spelt the end for Greece's global domination.
After the war, i quickly went after the spaceship techs, as i didnt think i could beat the other conquest or domination victories
Attachment: save.zip
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celeron450
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I started out slowly, but I was able to gain a tech advantage and win a conquest victory with superior firepower in 1778.
celeron450
Attachment: apolyton-tournament-1-celeron450-2576.zip
This has been downloaded 53 time(s).
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gus_smedstad
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Los Angeles, California
Nov 2001
time: 05:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Out4Blood
There are horses NE or your start location - you need to fight the Persians for them. They are near a flood plain which is a bonus. The other close ones are SW, but they Chinese will get them faster and the mountains/jungle make it a waste of time to build roads down there. |
Yeah, I played the map again, and this time I noticed that the Persians had some convenient horses. The Iron / Horses to the southwest CAN be taken before the Chinese get to them, but you have to know they exist, and you have to send a settler there ASAP.
On the whole, they're not worth the effort. The Persian horses are more convenient, as is the Iron near the Aztec starting city.
I did much better the second time around, but still not as well as you did. I don't believe I really had the entire continent in hand until 1000 AD.
quote:
I used archers until I got horses. FAST units are broken - they totally rule this game. A fast unit is worth several slow units since the fast ones never die. |
Any unit that usually takes wounds instead of dying has a severe advantage, since it can be healed with a few turns of resting (or 1 with a barracks). I think that's the point that the guys who claim "knights aren't worth it" are missing.
Sure, you can get 2.5 Horsemen for the price of one Knight. Sure, in a straight fight, the 2.5 Horsemen will beat a Knight. But they'll still lose a lot of Horsemen, even if they outnumber the Knights. If you're the attacker, you should always greatly outnumber the defenders - and in that case, the Knights take a lot of wounds and few casualties.
That's comparing fast units to fast units.
As you point out, fast units almost never die if they're facing slow units, provided they outnumber the enemy enough. Every once in a while one will kill itself trying to get a enemy past that last 1 hit point, but it's rare.
However, they do have one weak point - you can't really use them to defend towns. They retreat from fights in the open, but not in towns, so they give up their biggest advantage.
I think the alternate attack strategy is supposed to be infanty and artillery, but the artillery just isn't good enough. Yes, with enough artillery you can reduce the defenders to 1 HP each, and take them out with the infantry. However, in practice, a "large enough" cavalry force (Horsemen / Knights / Cavarly / Tanks / Modern Armor) is much cheaper.
quote:
You don't have to pay for units in Despotism. Just make sure you have a lot of cities. |
I didn't have enough cities. Despotism gives you 4 units per city for free, and I had too many.
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First game I went Great Leader -> Army -> Heroic Epic. I think I got 4 GLs the entire game. When I didn't, I ended up getting 2. IMO, Heroic Epic is broken like Air Superiority. |
I think there are very specific circumstances when you're allowed a Great Leader, but I'm not sure what they are. For example, I don't think I've ever gotten a Great Leader except when eliminating the last unit in a stack, or last defender in a town.
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Dog of Justice
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quote:
Originally posted by gus_smedstad
I think there are very specific circumstances when you're allowed a Great Leader, but I'm not sure what they are. For example, I don't think I've ever gotten a Great Leader except when eliminating the last unit in a stack, or last defender in a town. |
The only Great Leader I obtained in my game was not under either of these circumstances. (Instead, it defeated the second-to-last stack defending a city, I believe.)
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mscha
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The Netherlands
Nov 2001
time: 06:16
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I won the UN vote in 1826, just after I built it. I got four votes, Alexander only got his own and Caesars.
I managed to play the whole game almost entirely without waging war!
Only once, Caesar suddenly attacked me and managed to raze two cities. Well, a treaty with the two countries between him and me distracted him and he didn't disturb me anymore. He still wasn't speaking to me, so I sent a few tanks to Jerusalem and razed it. That got him talking, and we made peace.
I played for tech and culture, mostly. No way I could win this by domination, and I was still pretty far away from a cultural victory. If I had skipped the UN, I would be a few turns away from starting to build the space ship, so perhaps I would've won that. I could try, but since it's 7:30 am now, I think I'd better go to bed. 
- Michael
Attachment: mscha_un_1824.zip
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albiedamned
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Ellicott City, MD
Sep 2001
time: 00:16
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Obviously these tournaments are just for fun, because there is no way to enforce the rules. But I would like to think that everyone is playing by the honor system, and that reloading the game if for example you don't like what you got out of a goodie hut is a no-no.
In my game, I didn't reload at all. My score (~1900) pales in comparison to these early conquest/domination wins, but I believe I still have the earliest spaceship victory (1760 AD).
Mark, for the next tournament, let's not use a Pangaea map. In fact, if you really want to throw a wrench into this early domination strategy, let's play on an archipelago world!
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smellymummy
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quote:
Originally posted by albiedamned
Obviously these tournaments are just for fun, because there is no way to enforce the rules. But I would like to think that everyone is playing by the honor system, and that reloading the game if for example you don't like what you got out of a goodie hut is a no-no. |
I do hope so that everyone is following this kind of honor system. I'm glad some are actually posting it. Something about the goodie huts though. I was playing a game where I started with a hut right beside the settler start position. I saved, then tried walking over it, reload, tried building a city, etc etc. In each single case, and I did repeat, the goodie hut always paid off the same reward.
Too many people have been complaining about the goodie huts and there effects, on a tournament perspective, but I don't see what's the problem, as their rewards appear to be set into stone (bytes in this case).
quote:
Originally posted by albiedamned
In my game, I didn't reload at all. My score (~1900) pales in comparison to these early conquest/domination wins, but I believe I still have the earliest spaceship victory (1760 AD).
Mark, for the next tournament, let's not use a Pangaea map. In fact, if you really want to throw a wrench into this early domination strategy, let's play on an archipelago world! |
I believe you are the earliest spaceship vicotry, but at least I beated you at the score
and archipelago map for next tourney; now that would be a hard one.
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jimb0v2
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quote:
Originally posted by smellymummy
Too many people have been complaining about the goodie huts and there effects, on a tournament perspective, but I don't see what's the problem, as their rewards appear to be set into stone (bytes in this case).
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Goodie huts are NOT set in stone. It is set by the turn you open it on. You can always get a settler out of the hut to your north east in the beggining if you do it on the right turn. it's like turn 5,6, or 7. but if you open it on a different turn you do not get a settler.
This IS worth complaining about because an extra settler shoots you FAR FAR FAR ahead. It actually allows you to start taking over the chinese AND the persians at the same time. which is what you need to do in order to get that 10k score.
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24-11-2001 14:23
The randomness/cheating will directly influence the outcome regardless how you sort.
25 participants......... 10 winners.........
Attachment: 
In one turn alone I took about 10 cities in traditional civ 2 style (most were size 1-6 cities left over from previous wars). In all the wars I managed to get nearly everyone else against the lone power through diplomacy.
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