15-11-2001 20:50									#1
	Huts Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I have run a number of tests lately, after having played the 3 comparison games offered by our friends the SGs and smash (namely 'Come, laugh at the SGs', 'Large map, playing 2.42' and smash's '...sweet spot').
The conclusion is very simple:
The results of hut tipping, especially early tipping of 3 or 4 huts before discovery of Monarchy, make all the difference.
For example, I have managed to switch to Monarchy more than 1000 years earlier with 'lucky' hut tipping than without any hut tipping at all.
Therefore, the one and only strategical advice I can give to those wishing to achieve early landing on that kind of maps is:

RESTART AND RELOAD until you get the nicest possible results at early hut tipping.

I find restarting and reloading NO FUN.
Therefore,...
As far as I am concerned, I switch back to scenarios.
'Mongol' to start with (it should bring me close to Kabul and I sure enjoy it)

	15-11-2001 21:07									#2
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Would seem to be a significant element of luck in record-setting performances. That' somewhat reassuring to those of us that have never come close.

Is today the "day" for you and the SGs, or are you coing to hold off on Civ III for awhile? Note there are no "scenarios" in Civ III; it shipped with two differently-sized world maps, which is what we see when we double-click the 'scenarios' button on the start screen.

	15-11-2001 21:59									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Blaupanzer Is today the "day" for you and the SGs, or are you coing to hold off on Civ III for awhile.

LOL
There is a Rome PBEM game I am playing with DaveV and the SGs.
I have calculated this morning that we have been playing it at an average rythm of 1 turn/week up to now. This means we are almost certain to play civ2 in 2003
As far as civ3 is concerned, I haven't asked the SGs (AFAIK it should be available in the UK tomorrow).
There is not the slightest sign of the game coming to Toulouse soon (perhaps they have problems translating culture into french ; I offered my help for the translation a few months ago but got no answer from firaxis), so I read the civ3 strategy forum now and then, and go on playing civ2 day and night as usual.

	16-11-2001 01:57									#4
	Got spare money?

We are hoping to get our hands on Civ 3 tomorrow! La Fayette, I can't believe that France will be behind the UK!

On huts ... we know that the rules about huts change once the first city is founded. Before this time there are only 3 possible outcomes:
A unit
Gold
Tech

After the first city you can add:
Barbs - unless the hut is within city limits or 1 square beyond
Advanced Tribe/Nomad Settler

There is some evidence that the frequency of science increases after the capital is founded. Usually, I try to open huts before founding, or after Monarchy. A run of unwanted science prior to Monarchy can put your game back centuries. After Warrior Code/Iron Working/Map Making your research rate is about 23 turns.

-----------------

SG(2)

	16-11-2001 02:47									#5
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits We are hoping to get our hands on Civ 3 tomorrow! La Fayette, I can't believe that France will be behind the UK! ---------------- SG(2)

I don't know about France in general; but about La Fayette in particular you can bet you are way ahead if you get civ3 tomorrow, because no one in Toulouse seems to have the slightest idea of civ3 being released within a few weeks from now .
Never mind: I'll catch up! (and if I get too impatient I send you a few pounds so that you can buy a beautiful British tinbox for me)

	16-11-2001 04:02									#6
	Get a bigger avatar today!

The way you get "lucky" with huts is to aggressively explore and open lots of them.

beyond that,all I have is suspicion...nomads are controllable to a degree.So are barbs.I almost always get barbs when opening with the 2nd move point...solution:don't open with 2nd move point.
Huts on hills,mountains and forests should be opened by phalanx or archers or "exploration parties" usually including a diplomat.
Always trade techs before a hut so you don't "waste" it on a tech the ai has....judgement call..especially before the first gvernment change.

The "off and on" horse and boat is good also for coastal hut hunting.
Polar huts are no fear situations.
Same for huts in city radius.Your city or another civ's.This happens alot with the ai.Many huts have been opened inside an ai city radius.
I am almost surprised when a hut on grassland,with a special showing,isn't an advanced tribe.
Avoid Invention pre-reqs like the plague if you want lots o' tech from huts.

there is some intuition after hut# 100,000 or so

	16-11-2001 14:13									#7
	Got spare money?

I'vd had advanced tribes before founding my first city.

	16-11-2001 22:56									#8
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by La Fayette ...and go on playing civ2 day and night as usual.

[jealousy]Ah, to be able to play every day! I'm happy to squeeze in a half hour a few times each week.[/jealousy]

LaFayette, ShayYatesRoberts released version 2 of Age of Piracy scenarios. It's even better than the excellent original, and comes with 2 new scenarios. I've only played one of the three thus far, but recommend you download it.

	17-11-2001 01:04									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by DrFell I'vd had advanced tribes before founding my first city.

Do remember how late this was in the game? From 4000BC - 1500BC I think an Advanced Tribe is impossible without founding. If you hang around until about 1AD ... who knows. Did your free city come with a palace?

----------------------

SG(2)

	17-11-2001 02:18									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I've seen it a few times.Usually late,but once in a mp game at 3750bc!!!..with 2 whales!!!!

always comes with a palace.

	17-11-2001 03:56									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

>>> There is some evidence that the frequency of science increases after the capital is founded. Usually, I try to open huts before founding, or after Monarchy. A run of unwanted science prior to Monarchy can put your game back centuries.

SG2 --

With freakish exceptions, as you said, before first founding you can only get units, gold, and techs. After first founding you can get those, and also barbs and cities. On the face of it, that would suggest that you'd get fewer techs after founding, so that you should actually try to open huts after founding if you're trying to avoid unwanted techs. Is there really evidence that you get more techs after founding?

Also relevant is the discussion a few months ago about when you can get nomads or advanced tribes. I don't think the discussion was conclusive, but there was a very strong indication that you get far more of them when you don't have any non settlers on the continent. Nomads and advanced tribes are the jackpot of hut contents, in my book, so I've started building two cities as early as I can.

	17-11-2001 18:53									#12
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Smash I've seen it a few times.Usually late,but once in a mp game at 3750bc!!!..with 2 whales!!!! always comes with a palace.

Ah ... the hidden advantage of playing on a Mac

debeest - My impression is that after founding your first city the game tries to "help" you by giving scrolls like Masonry/Warrior Code for better defence. In addition, when you found a city you usually want a Tax Rate (In Despotism) of Science 60% Gold 40%.

Before founding, during the initial hut hunting phase, I do two things: (I prefer NON units as the result of huts at this stage)
1) Go into Anarchy - Despotism will always reappear on the next Oedo year.
2) Set science to zero. I have the notion that the tax rate can have an effect before your first city is built.

These two things seem to reduce unwanted science before Monarchy. Now this could be just my placebo!

I did a lot of hut testing when looking at starting techs. Here is a comparison of two batches of 100 tests.

Both tests were with the same hut/same game.
2,42/Deity/Hordes/Large World
Civ = Vikings
Year 3950BC
Hut on Plains tile
Approaching from the East
Government Despotism

Test A
Tax Rate - Default settings of 60% Science - 40% Gold - 0% Lux
Results:
Gold 23%
Unit 54%
Scroll 23%

Test B
Tax Rate - Science 0% - Gold 60% - Lux 40%
Results:
Gold 13%
Unit 71%
Scroll 16%

The increase in units is interesting - as well as the reduction of Gold with a higher tax rate

The problem with hut research is the number of variables. I am certain that the date plays a large part as proved with the compass point method of predicting just where barbs from huts will appear!

---------------

SG(2)

	17-11-2001 21:51									#13
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Smash I've seen it a few times.Usually late,but once in a mp game at 3750bc!!!..with 2 whales!!!! always comes with a palace.

Yup I've had the same thing happen a few times in 2x2x duels usually - but the location is often pretty crappy. I also sometimes get settlers from huts on grassland and plains, perhaps 2x2x or mge has some hidden differences from the standard game?

	17-11-2001 23:11									#14
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Wow. Those certainly are some persuasive statistics, SG2. As you say, the number of potentially relevant variables is overwhelming, but I've already been astonished at the things that our perceptive and persistent Apolyton testers have been able to figure out, and you might have something here.

Nevertheless, I think I still prefer to settle those non settlers in hopes of finding new ones.

	18-11-2001 00:53									#15
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by debeest Nevertheless, I think I still prefer to settle those non settlers in hopes of finding new ones.

Yes... every time. Keep a few woodland/hills (etc) huts unopened near to your cities until you use all your nons. This can save epic treks across continents by weary nomads.

------------------

SG(2)

	18-11-2001 05:14									#16
	Support Apolyton

Is it better to clear (remove the black) around a hut before "tipping" it?

My experience (limited though it may be) shows that by doing so, you decrease the possibility of barbs...

However, I have also noticed a similar reduction of desireable results....

Limited experimentation w/ save games shows that by clearing the unknown territory, it reduces the chance of more spectacular results.

Example (from recent experiment):

Background:
1 city founded (as Romans)
Tech: usuals (irr, min, road) + bronze, writing, ceremonial

Tipped a hut after clearing the radius of unknown (black) territory (25 tries):

6 Barbarians
Horse x 5
Legion x 1

8 techs:
Warrior x 4
Pottery x 2
Horse x 2

8 gold
25 gp x 6
50 gp x 2

2 settler/adv tribe
1 adv tribe (very bad location --- 3 mtn, 1 tundra, mostly plains)
1 none settler

Went back to the orignal save, did not clear surrounding unknown terrain (if the site of the hut was a city, with the standard city radius of 20 surrounding squares, 13 of those squares were unexposed [black]) with 25 tries:

10 barbs
8 horse
2 legion

9 techs
code x 3
warrior x 1
masonry x 3
mysticism x 2

4 gold
1 x 25
1 x 50
2 x 100

2 settler/adv. tribe
2 x none settler


I know that with 50 tries in one given scenario is not a viable statistical analysis, but it does reflect my previous experiences with the game.

Has anyone done an exhaustive analysis of hut tipping?


-Bob

	20-11-2001 05:09									#17
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Actually you can get your palace from a hut quite a bit. I'd have to say it happens once every 25 games or so. I've done it many times and people have done it many many times to me.

	20-11-2001 16:42									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Smash So are barbs.I almost always get barbs when opening with the 2nd move point...solution:don't open with 2nd move point.

Hm, in the early game, after I have founded cities, I always open with my first movement point. This means that if I find a hut after I have used up a movement point I just move around the hut with the rest of the points, or hit the space bar, to open it the next turn. If I get that lonely barb horse, he's history. Later on, when you get 8 of them (or whatever the number is) it doesn't matter anymore so I open all huts right away.

Carolus