17-11-2001 04:13									#1
	Windows XP and the Microsoft agenda - can it get worse? Inflate your Upload Space

Hi!

I read a lot of forum/article stuff about XP lately, and I ask: Can it get worse?

All those little Windows people are that glad: Oh, my Windows doesnīt crash all the time. An OS that doesnīt crash regularly is such a big feat? Ever heard of a well-administered Linux/Unix or an Apple iMac (out of the box).

If you didnīt miss it all, youīve heard about Smart Tags "feature" (Microsoft can alter the content of web pages to add "information"
(advertisment)). It was so controversial it was disabled.

Or Passport ? Give your personal data, eCommerce info etc. to a MS database for quicker eCommerce. Well you are encouraged to do this evry time you log onto the web. And hackers stage contests and regularly exploit security holes in the server.

Or the poor MP3 support. But the proprietary Windows Media File works well.

Besides, you need a high-end computer to run the Translucent Desktop feature (and a rather good one for normal mode of operation). Should an OS really use up most of the available ressources only for being there?

Not to mention the affair about commercial licenses (which is resolved now: business can stick with Win2000 still) or that microsoft based services now are dropping support or denying service for browsers like Netscape or Opera, for example at MSN MSNBC, Hotmail. Or the fact, that participating in MSīShared Source initiative means they can sue you, if you use participating programmers in non-Windows or GPL projects, because they "could" copy MS code? Or the Frontpage license, which prohibits MS-unfriendly content written with the HTML editor?

Well, monopolism is the game, Windows XP stands for Xtra Proprietary. All MS strategy is based on using its desktop OS monopoly to gain a monopoly in the server business and web services as well, because the OS cash cow is running dry.

I clearly see the Bush administration already has some very important tasks to tackle with. But pro-industry politics and the influence of lobbyists will not make the US or Western World a safer place either.

Computer viruses regularly exploit security holes in MS IE, or MS IIS web server, or Outlook. The desktop monoculture is already a threat to the web, and MS is limiting freedom of choice evry day more, with new incompatible propietary formats, prohibitive licenses and rushed-out bad code.

Just a simple reminder who you are dealing with.

See as well: XP draws fire from Mac, Linux, even DOS faithful at zdnet.com or MS dirty OEM secret or MSN.com shuts out non-Microsoft browsers
or
Windows XP: EXtra Proprietary

	17-11-2001 04:38									#2
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Read especially this article already mentioned above:Microsoft's Dirty OEM-Secret . It will tell you, why canīt buy a computer with Windows installed and another OS like Linux included (because of MSīlicense policies).


Windows XP: EXtra Proprietary will explain, what features of new Windows XP are threatening to expand MS monopoly further.

	17-11-2001 05:00									#4
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Good post Korpo Thanks

	17-11-2001 05:07									#5
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quote: Windows XP: EXtra Proprietary will explain, what features of new Windows XP are threatening to expand MS monopoly further

Okay...

quote: Microsoft's proprietary MSN network. On top of this, Microsoft also has specially tuned its MSN.com site to reject connections from non-Microsoft browsers, including Netscape, Mozilla and Opera.

False, I have Mozilla open, looking at MSN.com right now.

quote: One of the most controversial new eXtra Proprietary technologies is Windows Media.

Real simple, don't use WMP for mp3's. On the other hand, .wma files are pretty convient to quickly rip a cd to a smaller, equally good format.

quote: The result is that PCs have become much more powerful, but not much cheaper nor much more functional.

next

quote: Another eXtra Proprietary feature is Passport

Don't sign up for it. I did actually, incase someone might need help (using Remote Assistance, I can do that), and low and behold, I'm not any worse for wear.

quote: Michael Tiemann is the chief technical officer of Red Hat.

Of course...

	17-11-2001 05:11									#6
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Thanks, blackice!

Well, till now we keep it 50:50, I guess.

I found another article about security holes in Windows / Outlook, and their consequences.

The article is strongly partial in tone, but rests on a sound foundation..

Leveraging Linux

	17-11-2001 05:16									#7
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quote: False, I have Mozilla open, looking at MSN.com right now.

to some extent, it's true. don't be such a wiseass.

MS allowed non-IE browsers to view its site only after people (specifically competitors and business users) started to make some noise about it.

	17-11-2001 05:21									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Kyle False, I have Mozilla open, looking at MSN.com right now.

Not false, they changed it back after getting massive heat over it.

http://www.opera.com/pressreleases/20011026.html

http://www.opera.com/pressreleases/20011101.html

	17-11-2001 05:26									#9
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quote: Microsoft's inaccuracy no. 1: When we developed the site, we tested it against the most popular browsers on the market. Opera, the third largest browser on the Web, with millions of users, was obviously forgotten along with other rival browsers. Microsoft's inaccuracy no. 2: After receiving complaints from people who reported problems accessing the site, we looked into this issue further and determined that we had wrongly classified some browsers as "unknown." What Microsoft really was doing, was revealed early last week in an article by Sandeep Junnarkar and Joe Wilcox of News.com: Microsoft admitted that its technology was watching for Opera strings... (Source: news.cnet.com/news/0-1005-200-7660935.html) Thus, Microsoft had not classified some browsers as "unknown" by accident; they were deliberately targeting at least Opera users. Microsoft's inaccuracy no. 3: We have now fixed this problem, enabling everyone to access MSN.com... We want to make sure that anyone can take advantage of the great services on MSN, regardless of which browser they are using. MSN.com will be available to everyone, effective immediately. Opera users are still denied access to some MSN's services. An example is Carpoint.com, a part of the MSN portal. Opera users identifying their browsers as Opera are still told Microsoft Carpoint that contains the latest new- and used-car features cannot be viewed using this browser. If the Opera users change their browser identification to "MSIE 5", easily done by changing the preference in File > Preferences > Networking > Browser Identification, they can gain access to Carpoint like any other browser. So, to use the service, Opera users have to mask as Internet Explorer users. MSN.com is clearly not available to everyone. Microsoft's inaccuracy no. 4: ...We wish to reiterate our strong support for the Web specifications developed and supported by the World Wide Web Consortium and the software industry. Users who try to test MSN.com at the W3C's site for validation, validator.w3.org, will find that many pages on MSN.com do not validate. Microsoft's first excuse to not accept other browsers was that other browsers did not support XHTML, according to Sandeep Junkar in News.com (news.cnet.com/news/0-1005-200-7655334.html) As a rebuttal to this claim, Opera made a relevant press release available in W3C-compliant XHTML on its Web site: www.opera.com/pressreleases/xhtml/20011026.xml. As any visitor can check for himself, Opera reads it perfectly, as opposed to Internet Explorer for Windows. I hope now we will see a change where action matches the words, and that Microsoft starts to actively support the international standards and gets their pages to work with other browsers instead of closing the door, says Jon S. von Tetzchner, CEO, Opera Software. Microsoft has broken the Internet's golden rule that all Web sites should be accessible to all, no matter what browser or operating system they are using.

you MS zealots are so goddamned full of it.

	17-11-2001 05:31									#10
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I thank Yog-Sothoth and Wiglaf for their quick and accurate response.

Though some of my ressources seem to be dated, the basic aim is clear: proprietary technology, license tricks and extortion-like business style still seem to be the backbone of MS activity.

	17-11-2001 05:31									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Yog-Sothoth Not false, they changed it back after getting massive heat over it. http://www.opera.com/pressreleases/20011026.html http://www.opera.com/pressreleases/20011101.html

Yeah, I know about that. The implication of that article was that it was still going on. Didn't check the date of it.

	17-11-2001 05:39									#12
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I find it always funny, if people mention incompatibilities of other Office software like OpenOffice or WordPerfect with MS Office, and that they cannot change OS because of this.

In a recent article about StarOffice/OpenOffice 6.0 beta conversion and import/export tools it was mentioned, that not only these tools did their jobs exceptionally well for most use cases, but that often enough Office XP or Office 2000 werenīt able to do as well as Open Office did for example when importing dated Office 97 format.

In other words: Even MS own proprietary junk cannot help you keep your documents formatted the same way when versions change. Users that migrated from older Office versions several times and kept their formatting must be rare..

Especially funny IMHO was the vision of the author: 2050īs researchers are doing a history study of our times, and are failing to open Office 97 documents with Office XYZ on Windows XYZ..



Yes, I am partial. I became through experience.

	17-11-2001 05:45									#15
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Where's Glonk?

	17-11-2001 05:47									#16
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He just posted his eloquent opinion...

	17-11-2001 05:47									#17
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He just arrived

	17-11-2001 05:51									#18
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I'm so tired of arguing with people who refuse to acknowledge some basic premises.

It's pointless to argue about it, rather.

Linux is good for servers and compsci students. Sucks ass for anyone else. Admit it.
MacOS is good for people who think the computer has little people inside it happily working away and thinking.
Windows is good for people who like to game, do office productivity stuff, and basically a good allaround desktop or workstation OS.

Say what you will, but you're not going to change my opinion on it.

Carry on.

	17-11-2001 06:05									#19
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quote: Linux is good for servers and compsci students. Sucks ass for anyone else. Admit it.

admit you're completely turning this arguement into something it originally wasn't intended to be, another OS war, in order to avoid answering a very direct and valid point on a completely different subject.

quote: MacOS is good for people who think the computer has little people inside it happily working away and thinking.

	17-11-2001 06:07									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Asher I'm so tired of arguing with people who refuse to acknowledge some basic premises. It's pointless to argue about it, rather. Linux is good for servers and compsci students. Sucks ass for anyone else. Admit it. MacOS is good for people who think the computer has little people inside it happily working away and thinking. Windows is good for people who like to game, do office productivity stuff, and basically a good allaround desktop or workstation OS. Say what you will, but you're not going to change my opinion on it. Carry on.

This thread is about Microsofts business tactics, not about Win vs linuX or Win vs Mac. And I very much doubt that Korpo made this thread in an attempt to change your opinion about it

	17-11-2001 06:09									#21
	Put an end to popups!

Well, Asher, then you may confirm some of the following facts:

Windows is good for people who rather like buying new hardware because of OS upgrades. I never would have upgraded even to Win98, if I hadnīt to because of library incompabilities or discontinuation of certain products.

What office productivity can be done on Windows that cannot be done on a Linux client or a Mac as well?

And if MS Windows makes a good workstation, is an insecure (by default) workstation still a good workstation?




I myself keep Windows around only for the gaming, though for DOS classics this isnīt even an option anymore: A lot of games are no more supported by/ runnable under even Win98 SE version of DOS which were in Win95.. And the emulators under Linux are sometimes even better than original DOS.

Windows is carrying a lot of junk around because of compability reasons, but with every new version you will find a lot of stuff that wonīt work any more, software, that does the job, but doesnīt work anymore. The other way round, you need to upgrade, or you cannot get new software, which is not backwards compatible.

This problem is entirely unknown on Linux/Unix systems, where you decide, if necessary, which library you link against, etc.

With evry new Windows version you donīt only need a hardware upgrade, but over time you will notice you will have to find new solutions to problems you have already solved over and over again, simply because MS discontinued support for libraries etc.

Besides: Most likely you had to pay for evry Windows program you scrap because of a version change... flush your money right away.

	17-11-2001 06:10									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Yog-Sothoth This thread is about Microsofts business tactics, not about Win vs linuX or Win vs Mac. And I very much doubt that Korpo made this thread in an attempt to change your opinion about it

Do you really believe that? Look at one of the first lines:

quote: All those little Windows people are that glad: Oh, my Windows doesnīt crash all the time. An OS that doesnīt crash regularly is such a big feat? Ever heard of a well-administered Linux/Unix or an Apple iMac (out of the box).

He's obviously a Linux troll doing what Linux trolls do best: Bash the mainstream OS because the people who use it don't know any better.

	17-11-2001 06:14									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Korpo Well, Asher, then you may confirm some of the following facts: Windows is good for people who rather like buying new hardware because of OS upgrades. I never would have upgraded even to Win98, if I hadnīt to because of library incompabilities or discontinuation of certain products. What office productivity can be done on Windows that cannot be done on a Linux client or a Mac as well? And if MS Windows makes a good workstation, is an insecure (by default) workstation still a good workstation?

How is Windows, as a workstation, insecure?
As for Office Productivity on Linux: Does StarOffice have Wordcount yet? 'Nuff said.

quote: This problem is entirely unknown on Linux/Unix systems, where you decide, if necessary, which library you link against, etc.

Yeah, see, that there is the problem. I don't want to play around with figuring out which library to link programs against.
I'm lazy, I want the thing to work when I download it.
I don't want to compile it, set the right libraries to link it to, then muck around with setting it up so it'd be a global binary. Way too much work, way too little advantages.

quote: With evry new Windows version you donīt only need a hardware upgrade, but over time you will notice you will have to find new solutions to problems you have already solved over and over again, simply because MS discontinued support for libraries etc.

Such is life when you have innovation and new technology.
Why should MS support DOS games? If you want to play DOS games, use it on a DOS computer. No need to use all of that overhead for 99.9% of people who don't play DOS games anymore.

quote: Besides: Most likely you had to pay for evry Windows program you scrap because of a version change... flush your money right away.

You get what you pay for.

	17-11-2001 06:15									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Do you really believe that?

Yes, I really beliveve that this thread isn't about you

quote: He's obviously a Linux troll doing what Linux trolls do best: Bash the mainstream OS because the people who use it don't know any better.

So you're saying people use windows because they don't know any better?

	17-11-2001 06:19									#25
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Yog-Sothoth Yes, I really beliveve that this thread isn't about you

I never said it was about me, I was just making a simple comment implying that his comments fall on deaf ears.
Nobody is going to change their opinions based on what they read here, so why do we even bother?

quote: So you're saying people use windows because they don't know any better?

I'll let it pass this time since English is probably not your native language, but my statement was made from the perspective of a Linux zealot.

	17-11-2001 06:19									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Asher How is Windows, as a workstation, insecure? As for Office Productivity on Linux: Does StarOffice have Wordcount yet? 'Nuff said.

The word count function is in: File -> Properties, then in the dialog box. Look at Statistics.

	17-11-2001 06:22									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Yog-Sothoth The word count function is in: File -> Properties, then in the dialog box. Look at Statistics.

Glad to see they finally added it in.

So let's say I wanted to set up some macros so hitting CTRL-T sets the font size to 18, bolds it, underlines it, and centers it. How would I do that?

	17-11-2001 06:22									#28
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I already stated I am partial.

Asher has some point in one thing, surely without intending it

You cannot merely discuss MS business practice. The technological, business and PR affairs are interwoven to a high degree (thatīs the name of the game).

MS licence policy is affecting distribution of BeOS or Linux. MS services lock other browsers because of "technical reasons" (because they identified themselves as not being IE..)

MS is making a PR campaign calling Linux and the GPL "a cancer", or even funnier a statement "un-American", is stating Apache is unsecure (which every software product is to some extent) with clearly disproven statements, and with no comparison which product would be more secure.

MS is simply sabotaging other formats, OS or licenses. They are not coexisting or simply uninterested in them. They deny access to them.

All of this can and more can be done because MS has a monopoly, which nobody can deny. A lack of quality is remedied by pushing the rivals out of market, by extortion-like methods.

Besides, donīt call me troll, call me geek.

	17-11-2001 06:25									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Korpo MS is making a PR campaign calling Linux and the GPL "a cancer", or even funnier a statement "un-American", is stating Apache is unsecure (which every software product is to some extent) with clearly disproven statements, and with no comparison which product would be more secure.

Actually, those comments aren't as bad as Slashdot & Co made them out to be.
What MS said was the GPL was "cancerous" in nature, which it most certainly is. Sure, it has bad connotations, but that's one word to describe it.
And it is 'un-American'. Americans are cutthroat capitalists and don't take the "socialist" approach of the GPL.

quote: MS is simply sabotaging other formats, OS or licenses. They are not coexisting or simply uninterested in them. They deny access to them.

Next can you please tell me the color of the sky? I'm confused.

quote: Besides, donīt call me troll, call me geek.

I will give you this: I respect you a lot more than other people on these boards because you don't cave into the childish temptation to spell MS as M$.

	17-11-2001 06:31									#30
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Asher I never said it was about me, I was just making a simple comment implying that his comments fall on deaf ears. Nobody is going to change their opinions based on what they read here, so why do we even bother?

Well, people bother to discuss all sorts of stuff in the OT, so why not MS

quote: I'll let it pass this time since English is probably not your native language, but my statement was made from the perspective of a Linux zealot.

Doh! It's getting late, and I'm tired

quote: Originally posted by Asher So let's say I wanted to set up some macros so hitting CTRL-T sets the font size to 18, bolds it, underlines it, and centers it. How would I do that?

I don't have a clue about macros, so don't ask me