17-11-2001 04:58									#1
	Armies. What's the point? Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

The name of this thread says it all.

So. I am Germans. I fight against the English. I have an army - 3 elite knights. (Not a very good decision, probably - to put elite units into an army, but, oh well...) I attack a city. There is a musketman defending it. Of course, the army defeats him, but there are only 2 hp's left after the combat. So, 10 hp's were lost. Now, I try the same thing with just one regular knight. Result - musketman killed, knight - 2 hp's left (!) Only one HP was lost! So, i'm asking - what's the point of an army, if it is weaker than a single unit?

	17-11-2001 05:02									#2
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they are usually very good. Maybe you battle was just a fluke, it depends on the terrain and city improvements that the defender has.

	17-11-2001 05:04									#3
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Maybe...
I think it could also be that the knights fought against musketmen... I guess you are right.

	17-11-2001 05:18									#4
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I like to use elite units since the only real thing you gain from an army is a massive pool of HP. If I used reg units it would be only 9 for a 3 unit army but Elites give me a 15hp army.

I'm going to start building panzer armies in my game so I will be stuck with Vet units but that should be fine.

	17-11-2001 07:27									#5
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Panzer armies wipe the floor with other civs. Even the mighty infantry fall before them...

	17-11-2001 07:53									#6
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Armies whats the point?

It combines the hps of all units in the units. And it attacks only once --it goes for only 1 unit. that alone means you could potentially have armies with 16 hps, with the pentagon.

	17-11-2001 09:50									#7
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the max is actually 20hp if you have the pentagon (4 elite units at 5hp).

as for armies being useless I disagree. Stack up a bunch of infantry, or better mech infantry, and they make formidable defense. I think we all know how the AI can quickly build a swarm of units, and having a high HP units helps.

However on the offensive they do fall short... I've often lost an entire army when attacking an equal or lesser unit that's well defended (land bonus, city, fort, guarrissoned that kind of defense) and it's really infuriating. Being able to attack once only is also dissapointing, but just about every other units is the same... and the army can still move after attacking.

Anyway in the late game tanks are the best. I haven't tried panzers yet like a previous post suggested, but even regular tanks do the job well (not to mention the modern tanks...)

	17-11-2001 14:57									#8
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i agree with smelly... dont make them in for offense at all. it's much easier to attack with individual attackers and use the armies as big defenders to stop the counter attack. if you use attackers that can normally attack more than once in a single turn and put them in the army, then they can only attack once!

use armies for defense

MaSsConFUsi0n

	17-11-2001 16:17									#9
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Armies, when treated properly (i.e. given time to heal after an attack) are indestructable! I've run four-elite cavalry armies against mech infantry and won (Hrmf! It's the northern alliance unit). Heavy casualties, but a victory nonetheless. And yes, a Panzer Army (esp. a four-panzer army veteran and above) whips anything's sorry @$$.

	17-11-2001 19:12									#10
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I had a similar experience with my armies: they seem to be weaker than single units HP for HP. Even if this is true, it still gives an edge... the mob *is* strong due to it's heap of HPs.

I think however that a Leader is better spent elsewhere... wonders are tough to build in Civ3.

Of course, in my latest war-monging game with a war raging from 2500 BC until 100AD with lots of elite troops, I didn't get a single leader... poor me.

	17-11-2001 19:57									#11
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Grim Legacy's point is well taken. Never, ever, ever, use a leader to make an army.

Just wait until you can build the military academy and use that city to build armies.

And the army is best employed for its stopping power. A mech infantry army just isn't going down if it's attacked by less than three or four superior units. You can either use the army to defend that "must-have" city OR [my preferred use] you can maneuver it into enemy territory and use it as a base for your high-attack units to attack FROM. The combat system throws up the army as the first unit to accept counterattacks, so any other unit stacked with the army is pretty much immune to counterattack from any but the largest and most determined force. If the enemy can kick your army's butt and get at the other units, you shouldn't have attacked in the first place and you would be best served checking out reloading a game from the autosave file.

	17-11-2001 20:06									#12
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actually, I disagree with the 2 previous posts. Use your first leader to make an army, lead that army in a victorious battle, then build the Heroic Epic (and doesn't the military academy requires to have had an army before? At least in my latest game I didn't see it until the industrial age (long after I got mil. trad.) when I finally had a victorious army), so you increase your chances of getting leaders, that you can use for other purposes.

Of course it all depends on your luck too... If you think you really need the leader later on and in 50 games it's your first, well... I guess that's a different scenario

	17-11-2001 20:16									#13
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I had also been coming around to using armies as big defenders with all infantry type units.

Has anyone tried mixed armies, like combining Cavalry and Riflemen? Does this give any advantage? I know it does slow everything down to the slowest unit's move rate ... is there any pay off?

	17-11-2001 20:26									#14
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Though the can only attack once, if you play them right they should never die. They dont seem to heal completely in one turn (play balance?) but everytime the are hurt heal them.
I only make Armies out of speed 2+ troops. Most city defenders cant finish them off even if they do win.

I generally only use army for taking cities. The one thing an army is good for is a sure kill. If 4 Cav attack a city with 4 Musketeers each Cav has to fight a fresh defender. But an army attacking is like having 3 units all picking on the same defender. Its most likely going to take one out.

Ghengis Thom

	17-11-2001 23:02									#15
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Well, adding one defender to an army might be nice too.

At least my only army, that I could get so far has 2 tanks + mech infantry inside, and it rocks (vs mech infantry btw), the worst condition the opponents could ever fire it into was "yellow"

	18-11-2001 00:15									#16
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Armies exist solely to kill units on mountains. Usually, units of the same age will never be able to even put a dent in the defender if it is on a mountain.

	18-11-2001 10:00									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Ludwig Grim Legacy's point is well taken. Never, ever, ever, use a leader to make an army. Just wait until you can build the military academy and use that city to build armies.

Close but not quite. You must have had a victorious army in order to build the Military Acadamy. Once you've won a battle with an army, then use all of your leaders to build wonders.

This is assuming you manage to get more than one leader.

In my current game I've only had one leader, but he let me kick the English off my continent and the 4 Vet Panzer armies are rolling up the Russian cities. (Has anyone else noticed units getting promoted while in an Army? I now have a 3 Vet/1 Elite Panzergruppen)

	18-11-2001 13:21									#18
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It doesn't seem possible to load armies onto ships...am I wrong? (have played to the point where I have transports, but my galleon seem unable to take my great leaders and army of 3 legions anywhere (I want them to go to Britain!).

	18-11-2001 14:11									#19
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Not sure, but don't galleons have 3 spaces? When loading an army into a ship you need one space for the leader and one space for every other unit in the army so with three units in the army you need 4 empty spaces.