17-11-2001 22:50									#1
	Diplomacy Bargaining Power Question Put an end to popups!

Does anyone have any idea how bargaining power works? Example:

I was the aztecs. The americans were in AWE of my culture. Our militaries were roughly equal. They were cautious because we had a few wars in the past.

One of the trading combinations I saw was if I offered Monarchy (about 4-5 scientific advances worth) for writing (1st or 2nd advance) they were INSULTED?! THEY were insulted?

I thought culture is supposed to affect the quality of trades you get. For me to give monarchy for writing should have improved our relations tremendously, instead it would have insulted them, and that with my OVERWHELMING cultural superiority.

Any insight welcome.

Thanks.

	17-11-2001 22:56									#2
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Haven't you heard? The Americans aren't very keen on Monarchy. Refer to events in the US in the 18th century if you need further explanation.

	17-11-2001 23:00									#3
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Good point. Do nationalities make a difference? I mean do certain nationalities bargain more aggressively? (Even so, this was ridiculous

	17-11-2001 23:34									#4
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Oh, the other point I had to make was...were the Americans overall less advanced than you at the time, or more advanced?

And...were they running a Republic or Democracy at the time?

Because, if they were on Republic or Democracy, I can see why they wouldn't want Monarchy.

And also...I find the AI to be really quite tetchie (sp) if you've warred with it in the past.

	18-11-2001 00:31									#5
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Another thing, is that the americans might only be 1 or 2 turns away from discovering monarchy themselves. I've noticed that if the computer is close to discovring a tech, they of course won't want to trade much for it

Z

	18-11-2001 01:03									#6
	Put an end to popups!

hey, dont worry, the ai diplomacy is completely unrealistic... its not an isolated incident.. as a test, i asked for 10 gold in exchange for 9030 gold... it didn't work so i offered all 5 techs i had over her (Elizabeth) and all my cities as well, and it still didn't work (see thread: OH MY GOD)

	18-11-2001 01:24									#7
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the only time they would refuse to give ten gold for all that in my games have been when they don't HAVE 10 gold to give.

Although once I accidentally listed 500 gold per turn when I thought it was lump sum. They refused, I assumed because the game knew I could afford it.

	18-11-2001 01:29									#8
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I asked for one, size six city.

In return, I offered A) Every city in my empire (except my capital) -- several of which were size 12 (the max I could do at the time), and numbering about eight or nine cities total B) All the gold I had C) All the techs I had up on them (two or three major ones) D) everything else I possibly could.

Apparently, it's not worth it . Note that this is on Cheifton (have to get a feel for the game ), and I was one of the most powerful civs -- certinally not a ton less powerful than them.

In other words -- Bug. Computer assumes player will play rationally. Tut tut, bad assumption .

-- adaMada

	18-11-2001 01:44									#9
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Actually, I don't think that's a bug. AFAIK, computer players will NOT trade cities for anything. This is to prevent rich players from "buying" cities. The only time the AI will cede cities to you is if you're whoopin' them in a war and you ask for some cities as part of the peace agreement. Other than that, forget it.

	18-11-2001 01:52									#10
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quote: Originally posted by StonedGoat Actually, I don't think that's a bug. AFAIK, computer players will NOT trade cities for anything. This is to prevent rich players from "buying" cities. The only time the AI will cede cities to you is if you're whoopin' them in a war and you ask for some cities as part of the peace agreement. Other than that, forget it.

Prehaps you're right (with cities), but I think it's a bug when you're as powerful as an enemy and you ask for something and offer the same something but with more value. So the ten gold to one hundred gold bug... I think, in a little way, that should apply to cities. If I offer them a size twenty city with several wonders, and ask for a size one -- they should take it and smile .

For that reason, I'd say it is a semi-bug... maybe not a total bug, but the AI should be able to say "this is a great deal" and take it.

-- adaMada

	18-11-2001 17:01									#11
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For what tactical or strategical purposes would trading 100 gold in return for 10 ever be necessary?

The word "idiotic" springs to mind.

	18-11-2001 21:14									#12
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Idoitic is it exactly. But, the AI should be able to handle idiotic moves on the part of the human. It should assume we're all stupid if we act like it, and take advantage of us accordingly .

It's really not a major issue, and probably isn't even worth patching until all the other stuff's been fixed, but it should be considered a bug.

-- adaMada

	18-11-2001 23:13									#13
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Why not just give your opponent 90 gold as a tribute? They would accept that graciously.